Hi!! I'm Vic, a former Amazon driver who was interviewed about the cameras in our vans and the reasons I quit. You may have seen this article on r/Technology and Business Insider. I want to stand behind my former coworkers and fight for their righ...

Have you or anyone you know gotten into trouble because of those cameras? What was it like?

I haven't personally, because I didn't really drive with them for long enough. However, some other drivers did and I was there while it happened. They are shown their camera feed (in front of other drivers), called out, yelled at, and told to fix whatever issues the camera's AI recognizes under threat of losing their jobs.

(break camera)

"Problem solved, boss. I'm hitting the road..."

I wish. That would be tampering with company property and ground for firing, though.

I wonder if the people doing the shouting are recorded. Then their managers go through the video shouting at them for not shouting loud enough.

How deep does this go?!

There are hundreds of cameras in each warehouse. HUNDREDS. Everything is filmed.

In what situation would multiple drivers stand around watching a video of someone else? Pretty confused about this. I drove for Amazon for a couple of months in between jobs - it was terrible, but never once would a manager waste valuable delivery time by huddling drivers up to watch a video. Seems weird

My DSP had group meetings, and often one driver was singled out and had his video aired to the class, so to speak. Each company is different, though...

Amazon claims there's no piss bottles. Every bit of observable reality claims there are. Can you settle this for us?

You gotta join that one big Union

There are piss bottles. So many piss bottles. I hated it and even I had to do it once. Stopped and used trees more often than I can count... found other people's discarded piss bottles in my van... it's nasty.

Have you seen or heard about Amazon workers trying to form an union? Any signs of Amazon trying to bust it before it happens?

Yes, Amazon will fire any driver or contractor who suggests a union. We're in the face of great odds, but greater odds have been beaten before. Alabama's warehouse fighting for unionization needs to become a national fight.

Hey Vic, thanks for speaking out on these issues. How did you find the culture at Amazon when it came to your fellow employees and chain of command? Do you feel that the 'fear' trickles down from the top, and that each level of management was tasked with creating an atmosphere of extreme accountability / threat management etc?

No. The owner of my contractor was being screwed over just as much as I was as a driver. Give this a watch... Contractors are in the same boat as drivers, but there's nothing they can do either. Each employee and dispatcher feels threatened for their job constantly. Warehouse management, on the other hand, absolutely helps create that fearful atmosphere because they don't have the same accountability to shoulder that the driver side of things does.

I always found it funny that the station workers get better high visibility vests than us drivers and they then they made the 10pm delivery window permanent so we're delivering constantly after dark, and by funny I mean depressing.

Yeah my vests were so old all the high-vis lining started to peel off.

Why didn't you order a new one from Amazon?

(I'm sorry you worked for Amazon. I try really hard to not buy from them anymore)

Orders go through the company, and it wasn't worth the headache since I was quitting.

Bruh, it was a horrible joke about ordering from Amazon in the first place lol. Like shitting where you eat.

God speed friend.

Oh lmao that went right over my head. Probably because we actually DO have to order our replacement vests ourselves, just internally.

I had a relative with them as warehouse management for a short stint. They quit after fairly soon after starting. Something couldn't jive about having to treat employees like dirt and then coaxing them into taking photos of them smiling having fun like it was some kind of Jonestown cult to pass along to upper management. Whole thing sounded so fucked up I can't figure out how the company is staying profitable with the amount of turnover they had.

Then again now that I never know who I'm buying from on Amazon anymore I hardly ever order anything from them. So I'ld like to think I'm doing my part, but they just seem so unflappable.

Every little bit eventually ads up. It really is kind of cult-like...

Could you please describe the cameras in the vans and what they are used for? I am not aware of this practice, and would like to know more.

u/slothsquatch is mostly correct, but they're actually 4-way cameras, (front, left, right, driver) and they go under the mirror. They're about twice the size of a conventional car's rear-view mirror. They monitor and detect all the things mentioned using an AI, and while they aren't supposed to be live feed, they are almost always on, even up to 20 minutes after the van has been shut off.

What about a person who just yawns a lot? I yawn a lot but not because I'm tired. I just always feel like yawning. Would someone like me be docked everytime I yawned? (I yawned 3 4 times while typing this)

Yep.

Is there anything from your perspective that Amazon customers can do to help improve the working conditions of employees, or is boycotting the best option?

Boycotting is the best option. The company currently holds a monopoly over online retail that, in my opinion, is bordering on being unconstitutional (if it hasn't crossed that line already). We need to collectively decide that we aren't going to buy from a company that treats its employees like crap while lining its executives' pockets with billions.

However, drivers also greatly appreciate snacks set out for them by your doors 😁. As a driver, I didn't always have time to eat, and a granola bar and a bottle of water often helped me finish my route when I was about to drop.

Edit: ok, ok, I apologize. The Sherman Anti-trust laws are the legislation I was after, rather than the constitution. Doesn't make monopolies ok, though.

I'm going to start leaving snacks and water like they're Santa because most Amazon drivers don't make it to my door 😂

Unfortunately, Amazon.ca carries a lot of things I can't get locally or cheaply. Like Magic Bullet replacement blades or Kester solder that has flux.

I have severe depression and I live alone, so there are times where I can only do the bare minimum like get fresh groceries.

Each driver is proud of what he's doing, I can say that for sure. I was honored to be out bringing people things they need during this pandemic. I just wish we were treated like the essential workers we are. Your drivers will greatly appreciate you if you leave out snacks. 😁

They are large, but for perspective Walmart has more of the US retail spend.

What we need to do is raise minimum wage, implement universal healthcare, and basic. Focusing on the smaller retail company (and the one that pays more hourly) isn't the solution.

Voting is. Vote. Please. Vote for higher wages. Vote for workers rights. Get everybody you know to vote. In every election. Municipal, governors, hell even city Council!

Absolutely!!! Couldn't agree more. Honestly Walmart deserves a union too.

No don’t get me wrong I’m all for workers rights and everything but how are you going to get 100 million people to boycott Amazon when you can’t get 100,000 employees to go on strike? It seems to me that the most effective way to get Amazon to change is for everyone to walk out and they would have no way to deliver or to package 🔝

There is a planned nationwide walkout on Easter Sunday. Spread the word.

This comment makes me so happy! Before covid I did this whenever I had a delivery. I always wondered if this was appreciated or if the drivers found it creepy. 😅

Oh we LOVE it. Makes our day.

How are monopolies unconstitutional?

I loath monopolies, but you're just wrong in stating there's a constitution ban on monopolies

You're correct, my apologies. Perhaps "heavily discouraged by the Sherman Anti-trust legislation" and other laws would be better phrasing.

Do you worry about any legal retribution because you're going against a company the size of Amazon? Has it caused you any backlash or have you seen mostly positive responses?

I have seen mostly positive responses. I haven't caught any backlash yet, but I'm doing my absolute best to keep myself relatively anonymous, because I believe Amazon has way too much power in this nation at the moment, and I absolutely believe they would try to take me down if they could.

I mean as long as you’re not the Victor Fuentes in the news that publicly said he breaks the rules and doesn’t like the cameras because of that...

No, lol, Vic is an alias.

Just so you know, there is no keeping anonymous from amazon if they care to look into something. All your electronic devices have physical addresses that are logged and your ip address can usually identify you as well. Amazon Web Services currently has around 33% of cloud hosting market share. They absolutely have the data necessary to identify anyone if they are motivated to do so.

I am aware that I'm not impregnable. That risk, though, I feel was worth getting some information like this out.

That's fair, and I'm glad you aren't intimidated into silence. I just wanted to point out that anonymity online is fragile at best.

Thanks!

People get shot for $20. Definitely be careful. Also, frick Amazon. Always a problem with my order.

yea....frick Amazon!

I ordered a damn bong and all I got was an Xbox controller. Bullshit!

Lmao

Having worked for them, I can confidently say that all their software was programmed by a single high-school age intern who was paid in "experience."

How would Amazon “take you down” if you’re a former employee?

Endless pointless litigation until I was bankrupt.

I always compliment the delivery driver on my Amazon phone app. Do those positive ratings equate to anything good for the driver?

We almost never see our positive ratings, sadly. We get spoken to about our negative ones though.

Do you think Amazon employees should unionize?

Yes, absolutely. Amazon has shown time and time again that aren't going to treat ANY of their employees well. Their executives only care about money in their own pockets. Amazon employees have to stand up and fight for their rights, and now is the time to unionize.

As I understand, if you mention Union they will just fire you? If most or all the workers do unionise, wouldn't they just fire them all and hire new people? Seems like there's enough people without a job that would take it..

Yes. They have enough power at this point to manipulate the entire workforce by paying JUST enough to make people desperate for a job, or to keep a job.. They keep people employed through fear, living paycheck-to-paycheck. Lose your job, and you lose your home. Amazon uses a contractor system for delivery drivers; contractors are called DSPs. They would fire an entire DSP or close an entire warehouse rather than allow unionization.

Honest question: Is there high turn over? Why don't people quit and work some where else? I have had shitty jobs or bosses in the past and I would look around for another job was better and take a better job, or get fired and have to find a different job. Maybe Walmart or construction?
Are there not that many other equivalent jobs around?

BTW, thanks for sharing. There is some much discussion about Amazon it is interesting to obtain an inside perspective.

The turn-over is INCREDIBLY high. It's a very difficult and demanding job, for not-great pay. For many, though, the pay is just enough to keep them off the streets and it's hard to find another job, especially in this pandemic. So, they're stuck. Quitting and missing a week of work can mean missing rent.

I feel for you. Working at usps, in a very rural area, the contract of Amazon and usps makes us work every holiday and Sunday to do package deliveries. After crunching numbers, a huge package or a spur/padded envelope, we make about 1.30. no idea how our Post Master, supervisor, clerk, and us the driver is able to take money out of that paltry 1.30.

🤷‍♀️

Are there any alternatives to Amazon that you would personally recommend?

Sellers on Amazon often have personal sites you can buy from, instead of using the Amazon marketplace. Local stores, while usually a bit more expensive, also generally offer better quality, too.

Vic, since a lot of us are working from home and Amazon executives seem to really like videos of people peeing in bottles at work, would we be able to take the burden of accommodating this bothersome fetish off of hardworking Amazon employees by directly emailing thousands upon thousands of peeing-in-bottles videos to them?

Yes, please do! I'm sure it'll make drivers' workload lighter, and Amazon execs can't complain about having more videos to wank over.

Is it different for independent contractors who drive their own vans and trucks for Amazon?

Amazon has been cracking down on these contractors and forcing them to use Amazon trucks.

As a union driver for UPS all I have to say is that Amazon workers need to put up the good fight. Sure our union has seen better days but they put up a fight to get the rights and benefits that we have. The delivery business is not easy and I can guarantee you not a single person would stay long enough here to retire otherwise. Have you or other drivers you know tried talking to ups/fedex on routes to try to learn how the rest of the industry does it without Amazon's propaganda?

I have! It seems like other drivers are allowed a bit of discretion as to how they choose to run their routes, and they aren't CONSTANTLY watched like we are. Removing that stress goes a long way.

I carried for the USPS for a couple years with a lot of similar problems. In your experience so far, what's anothet career/industry that wants this level of moving motivation and energy?

This is a hard job to top in that regard. Possibly waiting tables in a Michelin starred restaurant during the dinner rush... I ran over 8 miles a day working for Amazon, and that's just hundreds of driveways.

Is it true that if your vehicle gets in an accident and you are found not at-fault, you still get fired as you are seen as a liability?

That is a question I may not be able to answer. I haven't personally seen a driver get fired for an accident, so I wouldn't want to speculate on it too much... what I'm more concerned about is Amazon's refusal to admit that its lax training is at the root of many accidents. Drivers don't know what they're doing, because they haven't been taught what to do. The camera allows Amazon to blame drivers for accidents by filming the IMMEDIATE cause for an incident, rather than the underlying causes they try to hide.

I sincerely wish that Amazon took driver training more seriously. The way they just randomly park all over the road in areas with poor visibility... ugh. Accidents waiting to happen.

Yep. Routes are also incredibly poorly programmed, so they're often doing the best they can, but Amazon has invested money into these cameras, and other things such as drones and electric vans, rather than fixing what's broken first.

I've literally told them my lat-lon a dozen times because they have my postcode flagged at someone's house 500yd down the road. I have to speak to or even sometimes chase the driver up the road, or miss my goods. It sucks. Drivers also tell me this is the nth time this has happened and they're sat there phoning the office again

They will never fix it. Drivers have to memorize stops all over the city. We aren't given regular routes like UPS and FedEx, so we end up needing to just know problem spots all across the city. I had a stop on a closed road several times over the course of 6 months, and I reported the road closed every time. It was never fixed. Even had a delivery to a long-since demolished church once.

I know people get fired for missing too many productivity goals even when lost time is due to bathroom breaks.

Have you heard of anyone getting fired because they got caught meeting those goals by peeing in bottles?

Not yet, lol. Drivers are told not to pee in bottles, then given no other option, though. It's an issue that can't really be resolved until the way Amazon programs its routes changes.

Aren’t employees legally supposed to have access to bathrooms? Like I’m pretty sure it would be an OSHA violation if not. I’m also not sure how it’s sanitary for drivers to have to pee in bottles because they have no other choice, and then what? Touch everything with their pee hands?

Yep. All this happens. There is definitely a chance your package has been touched with dick hands.

How much did your job change in terms of automation in the two years that you were there. I'm off the opinion that Amazon cares very little about goodwill with its employees because it plans to ultimately ramp up automation in its warehouses and delivery vehicles and layoff most of the workforce. Do you feel like that process is already threatening positions like yours and do you feel that unionization would be short lived because of it?

Our discretion as drivers was slowly taken away as time went on. When I started, we were able to choose how to deal with difficult packages, where to leave them, how to mark them delivered in the system, how to follow our routes, who to call for help, etc. As time went on all this was slowly taken away from us. We were forced to follow Amazon's specific procedures, rather than doing what we, as the drivers actually out on the road, thought was best. This made our jobs more difficult, stressful, and unflexible.

How do we best show our thanks for drivers? I'm getting those delivery emails and giving everyone an "above and beyond," but I expect that and a $5 bill would get you a cup of coffee.

Leave out snacks! Water and energy bars are appreciated more than anything. Often, that snack gives us the energy to finish a long route. And, sadly, we don't usually see positive feedback. We only hear the negatives.

Will do! Most drivers for our area are pretty cautious about contact, I just want to make sure they're able to accept thank-yous and aren't afraid of getting covid-cooties.

Yeah, we try to be safe. But, water and snacks go a long way. Heck, some people occasionally leave out hand sanitizer too!

I've noticed a few movies and TV shows utilising amazon staff and services in what appears to be indirect advertising e.g. Nomadland.

Is it fair to say that Amazon are waging a propaganda war to try and scrub history of their crimes?

Some of Amazon's adverts include hearts and minds type stories from managers and employees that look like they might be vulnerable/short of employment opportunities. Is there a culture of indoctrination within the business? And are Amazon exploiting vulnerable people in these commercials?

I began boycotting Amazon after they used their online status to circumvent UK business laws. Is there any evidence of Amazon management purposefully circumventing UK laws, and if yes, how would we find it?

Yes, Amazon wages propaganda. Constantly. Their "innovation" with their electric vans is a ploy to appear as a forward thinking company, and direct attention aware from the medieval ways they treat their workers, for example. I don't know the stories of the people in the commercials, since I haven't done them myself, so I wouldn't comment on that personally... I am also American, so I don't know about Amazon's policies in the UK, so again, I apologize but I can't help you with that one either. 1 of 3. 🤣

I noticed that scene in Nomadland too, having watched the movie after reading the book. The book discusses the realities of Amazon staff, such as repetitive stress injuries and being overworked, while the scene in the movie makes Amazon look like a chill workplace. I wouldn't be surprised if you are right on that at all.

Hmmm... yeah there is no chill. We were even discouraged from talking with one another at the warehouse, at one point.

I literally start my job driving for Amazon tomorrow... How fucked am I?

Ah shit. Relatively. I'm sorry!! It isn't a bad job, and I love delivering. Amazon is just toxic, but there are still lots of great people and other drivers you'll meet. Go in as positive as you can.

I'm torn on this one. On one hand, bank tellers and even fast food workers have had cameras on them and the cash register for decades. On the other hand you have proactive AI monitoring vs reactive monitoring IF something were to happen.

Would you be okay if the cameras were there, but only really looked at when/if there were a problem and they were just used for investigation purposes?

Basically, is it the AI you have a problem with or the cameras themselves?

It's the AI. I have a dash cam on my personal car. I think it's great for liability. Reactive monitoring though, is wrong, in my opinion.

If you yawn you’re fucked??

Yep, it picks up on that. It's very annoying.

Has this experience affected your views on police bodycams?

Not really. The police hold life and death in their hands. I don't really agree with the way policing is done in America at the moment, but the police certainly have more culpability than an underpaid delivery driver.

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I'm so sorry to hear all that, and I thank you for your support. I'm glad she recovered and got out of that hellhole.

I keep reading articles about Amazon stealing driver tips. It makes me sick to my stomach because I always tip delivery people well. Are my tips going to the drivers or are they going into the black hole of money the company sucks up??

I am honestly not sure. I've never received a tip via Amazon's system; only from cash at the door.

Hello, UK restaurant worker here.

For pretty much my whole working life I have had CCTV pointed at me unless I was at the bath room. Now my current employer is a decent family company and its never a real issue unless your stealing or really ripping the shit out of a break etc.

My father has driven busses and lorries (trucks) for most of his life and they have trackers etc and may well end up with a camera in place and he seems to have no real issue with either.

Having a dash cam, driver cam and cam in the back seems fairly reasonable to me. Saying that the only issue i would have would be the AI system getting flags for yawning etc

Why do you feel that you should have your privacy so much while you are being paid? its not your personal time so being recorded to me seems acceptable?

Thanks

I don't think cameras are entirely unreasonable. I even have a dashcam in my personal car. It's the way Amazon chooses to use these cameras that bothers me. In some of my other answers, you'll see I said that Amazon forces drivers to consent to their biometric profile (videos, pictures, etc.) being shared with whomever Amazon wants. Liability is one thing. Privacy is another. And I feel that this is an invasion of privacy because I don't KNOW who is going to see that footage. You know who sees that CCTV, and your father knows who watches those truck cameras. You've all probably met those people face-to-face.

Is there any of this that you think might have been reasonable and maybe the "why" just needed to be communicated more? I'm not suggesting that they were 100% in the right, but I feel like the camera thing just isn't that big of a deal.

Like at my office job and numerous other office jobs, we have cameras watching us 24/7.

Do you think the request for them to ask for pictures could have been due to fraud from drivers 'signing into the app' in the morning and then passing their phone off to someone else to actually do the work?

I think a dash cam is a great security measure. I have one in my personal car. But, when you install a camera facing the driver, it suggests that the driver is going to be the problem. It cultivates a culture of mistrust, and says that your company does NOT have your back. Amazon drivers need more training and less stress. They do not need additional monitoring. Also, I don't really think that level of fraud is a concern. This isn't a job you could convince someone else to do for free, or as a favor. It's, again, to shift blame onto drivers for any incident that may happen. Drivers are seen as Amazon's weakness, not their greatest asset, and that would be a problem with ANY company, let alone one of the world's biggest and richest.

Drivers can be both an asset and a weakness. And they can also be a liability.

Many trucking companies have dashcams that also monitor the driver. With the number of their trucks on the highway there IS going to be accidents with some of their trucks. And the company wants to ensure the driver was not distracted at the time of the accident. It could mean the difference between a large settlement are the other driver being found in the wrong.

This in no way condones unreasonable workloads on the driver. But there are valid reasons for the cameras.

But do those trucking companies force their drivers to allow the distribution of that footage to whomever management pleases? It isn't so much the cameras themselves, but how Amazon chooses to use them.

Yeah I understand that, I think RE: other people doing your job, it's not for free. But Uber/Lyft had this same problem, I think they solved it the same way, but basically someone who was banned from the app or not eligible to work in the country, would pay someone to register as a driver for them, and give them a % of their income.

I wonder how much of this might be pushback from their insurance company, as a seller on amazon, I'd personally love to see a dash cam camera/rear camera, and then cameras off to the sides to verify package delivery. I feel like the more cameras on the outside the better Amazon might be to target package theft by people that would follow the vans.

Oh I see, that's actually very interesting, that issue with Uber and Lyft. Never would have thought to scam someone like that 🤣.

It becomes a gray area, concerning the outside security aspect of it. Not everyone wants their house filmed and recorded every time a deliver is made. I think doorbell cams are better suited for that purpose, personally.

A few things I would like to point out:

1. "Amazon" drivers do not work for Amazon
2. Every Amazon station is different
3. The cameras in the vans are the fruition of a few bad drivers

​

I have worked for Amazon Logistics (the actual main company) for over 2 years now. When my station was first launched, we had hundreds of packages going missing every week. What did we do in response? We started actively tracking what drivers, stowers, and pickers were associated with the missing packages. When we saw that there was a strong correlation with certain drivers and made the companies install cameras. It is not just asset protection - that camera can get the driver's name cleared just as easily as it can condemn them.

​

Don't get me wrong, I could not do what you guys do. Y'all got it rough, but it's not Amazon's fault. I have a lot of drivers that love working for their company. Yeah, the routes can be crappy and the app can be buggy but what makes or breaks it is the company you hire on with.

I love being a delivery driver. I still am, just with a different company now. The micromanagement starts to get to us, though. The good, and great drivers are being punished because of the bad seeds. I was arguably this peak season's top driver, too, and I still ended up being forced to go along with all the regulations. I think some method of watching just those drivers, pickers, and Stowers associated with missing packages would've been better than starting to monitor everyone equally rigorously.

My friend that works in their shipping department loves it. He claims everyone complaining are just worthless employees. He's getting promoted and gets paid fairly well. He's opposed to unionizing. Why the discrepancy in experience?

I'm not sure, because his experience is different than mine. I would say, however, that his case would seem to be an outlier based on all the opinions I've seen and heard both online and at work.

How many bottles of piss have you filled up?

Just one, personally. I hated doing it. When I had rural routes without gas stations I pissed on the side of the road, or on trees, instead.

Was the pay fair comparing to other mail delivery jobs?

Depends on the area. FedEx and UPS pay 2 to 3 times more, but Amazon often pays juuuussstt enough to make paycheck-to-paycheck living possible.

what’s the work shift like as an Amazon drive, do u work 7 days a week?

It depends on the area. 7 days a week is a DOT violation in most places, but I've done 6, and I've done 14 hour days in the dark and the snow.

Isn’t it funny Amazon has a left wing bent to it but they are coming up with all these evil practices? They are the ultimate cost cutting capitalist organization

All the more money for Jeff's pocket. The man is real-life Lex Luthor.

I think cameras monitoring drivers is a fantastic idea and helps to figure out root causes to accidents.

In the future we may figure out a way to take drivers out of the equation.

Does the computer just give you the creeps or what?

In the interview it was mentioned that it starts recording when you do something potentially unsafe such as look at your phone while driving.

Amazon forces us to consent to allowing them to save all of our biometric information, that being photographs, videos from the cameras, and facial scans. They force us to allow them the right to create a biometric profile of each driver, and share this information with whomever they see fit, including customers.

The camera does give us the creeps, and I saw it as a violation of privacy and a violation of trust in the worker. It is a 4-way camera, mind you, and one lens faces the driver.

Amazon actually has a much higher incident rate than UPS or FedEx. The reason is a lack of training; Amazon drivers are give a couple hours of useless classroom training and a single ride-along, then sent out on their own. The camera attempts to shift blame onto the drivers and allow Amazon to avoid taking responsibility for their workplace failings.

Four cameras seems like a CYA clause for Amazon. Damn.

There is potential for each and every Amazon van to be a rolling neighborhood surveillance vehicle. These cameras see everything that happens on the road, they point at your house even when the van is off, and this isn't an issue just for the drivers anymore.

So you're against personal responsibility for your actions as a driver?

No. A camera is not necessarily a bad thing. Amazon's particular use of the camera is what makes this a problem. If the camera was ONLY there to help figure about what caused an accident, like a normal dash cam is, there would be no problem. However, Amazon is specifically using this technology as a way to shift ALL blame for ANY incident to the driver, and to micromanage and police its employees almost constantly. Stress also leads to accidents, you know.