I am a (former) state-level administrator of the National School Lunch Program. Ask me anything!

My old school had to switch to state lunches when they hit a certain amount of low income students. The quality of the food dropped drastically.

Is it supposed to be the cheapest possible with hitting the minimum health guidelines?

When you say "state lunches", I'm guessing you mean the National School Lunch Program. As you said, schools are not required to participate in the NSLP until they hit a threshold of students eligible for free or reduced-price meals.

There are a number of factors that go into the perceived quality of the meals. First, as you mentioned, there are nutritional guidelines and meal pattern requirements that must be met for a meal to be considered reimbursable under the NSLP. Each meal must contain the following components:

• Meat/meat alternate
• Grain
• Fruit
• Vegetable
• Fluid milk

There are additional requirements (sodium levels, fat content, whole-grain content, vegetable subgroups, etc.) that also come into play. For example, deep-frying is not allowed as a cooking method for any foods served in the NSLP. If your old meals weren't adhering to these requirements, then (especially from a child's perspective) the new meals could be perceived as lower quality.

There is also a financial consideration. For the contiguous United States, the maximum reimbursement amounts for lunches are:

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If your school was previously providing significantly higher cost meals, they may not have been able to afford those under the NSLP reimbursement model.

Fluid milk

Wtf? Why? I mean I know milk lobby but what's the stated justification?

fluid milk is an easy way to get Vit D and Calcium into kids.

I must be missing something here but why is everyone saying "fluid milk" like that's a normal term. I'm 27 years old and have only heard people ever call it milk.

I think that specifying fluid milk also stops any questions like "does yogurt count as milk".

I am a pilot in AK, one day I flew 200 lbs if salmon into the village for the school lunch program. Why wouldn't the school burrough just buy the salmon from the villagers? They have a strong salmon run and sell it on the market?

Always wondered that, like bringing sand to the beach.

There has been an increased focus on buying local products, including specific allowances in procurement regulations to allow schools to give preference to local vendors. It's possible that the school was able to purchase the salmon you delivered at a significantly lower price than the local vendors could offer.

It's also possible that the salmon you delivered was part of the USDA Foods program, where USDA purchases large quantities of various food products and gives each school an allowance to purchase those foods from USDA.

Legitimate question, are you ever embarrassed at some of the choices offered? Because as a parent, I am sometimes horrified.

What choices horrify you? While they're certainly not "health food", they're probably not as bad as you think.

Thank you for responding. We’ve been to a few school districts and so I am not sure if they are all apart of the National School Lunch Program, but I specifically remember breakfast as Trix flavored yogurt, “maple flavored” mini waffles, nurtigrain bars & orange juice - it just felt like so much sugar. The amount of prepackaged goods was astonishing.

Currently, my issue stems from the amount of (what I perceive as low nutritional foods) they eat each week. Corn dogs, cheeseburgers, tacos, chicken & waffles, etc. I then feel like we can’t enjoy these “junky” foods as a family because they’re eating them almost daily.

And yes, I am privileged in a way that I can make home lunches for my three children, but we go over the menu weekly and they choose which days they would like school lunch. This week it was 1 day out of the 4 days of school.

I also understand the amount of research and care that must go into a program like this and I can appreciate where it’s coming from, but I honestly think it could be better by introducing ‘healthier’ foods into the mix - especially given the obesity risks this new generation is facing.

Breakfast is definitely a challenge. Because many schools don't have time to incorporate a breakfast service, the meal pattern is structured to also support a grab-and-go or breakfast in the classroom model. Any of the grain items contain at least 50% whole grain and are generally lower sugar than what you find at the grocery store.

The other items (hamburgers, hot dogs, etc.) are generally lower in fat and sodium and often incorporate textured vegetable protein to further reduce the fat content.

The current meal pattern requires a serving of fruit with breakfast and servings of both fruit and vegetables with lunch, as well as requiring a variety of vegetable types.

It's definitely not perfect, but they're trying.

What can I personally do to change our school lunches to include locally sourced ingredients?

The same week many of our (Vermont) students' parents were laid off in a local orchard closing, my school began its first-ever hot-lunch program -- and served Washington state apples, because we had to, because we were supplied via the high school, who had a contract with a large corporation.

This still makes me angry. It shouldn't be this way. But what can I do?

This is tricky. Schools are required to comply with federal procurement regulations (specifically those found in 2 CFR Part 200). With that being said, there is the opportunity to apply geographic preference to procurements for unprocessed agricultural products. Unfortunately, it can be difficult and time-consuming for a school district to conduct a proper procurement process for many individual items. The recommendation that I used to give was to at least attempt to work with distributors who committed to supplying local produce.

Ultimately, though, it comes down to the time and personnel that the school has to devote to the food service.

What is "local" defined as by the food program?

The regulations allow "local" to be defined for each procurement, with the caveat that the definition cannot unreasonably restrict competition. The definition also applies to the source of the product, not necessarily the location of the supplier.

For example, if you defined "local lettuce" as "within 50 miles", and there are multiple farms within that 50 mile radius then that would be fine. On the other hand, if you define local as "at the corner of Route 151 and County Road H" because you know of a really neat farm there, that would be overly restrictive.

Could you give me the recipe for the square pizza from my childhood, please?

It was probably this. You can do a search for "CN label pizza" to see all of the options that are out there now!

I can't believe that shitty commodity pizza costs the school a dollar a square. I would've guessed 50 cents a serving max? Any decent pizzeria can put out a similarly-sized piece of pizza for a dollar that's more than just barely edible. I come from Pizzatown, USA, but that's ridiculous. Unless they're getting SUBSTANTIAL bulk discounts, kids deserve better.

It's likely that the school can purchase it cheaper than that. The site I posted is one that will sell directly to consumers vs. only food service operators.

What about that hexagon orange “Mexican pizza”?

Ask and you shall receive.

I work at a school where 100% of kids get free lunch. I am seriously appalled by the amount of food waste that we produce. Students are told they have to take one of everything - even if they brought their own lunch. Yesterday we had pizza, broccoli and peaches. Every singly kid threw away their broccoli without opening the package. I've tried everything - eating the broccoli myself in front of them, daring them to try 1 bite, even saying they are not allowed to throw anything away without trying.

I'm sharing this because - while I love all of the health-drive initiatives that have occurred in the last few years, I don't believe they are having the impact we think they are having.

Without education, shifts in culture/mindset, the potential of these healthy changes will be lost. Do you have any tips for getting kids to have an open mind about these new lunches?

EDIT: a little more background - my students are first graders. It's not just the foods that kids stereotypically don't like (ie. broccoli). Grapes- they won't eat unless they're seedless... Oranges - they can't peel... Cherry Tomatoes - they legitimately didn't believe me when I told they they were tomatoes !!

Does your school qualify for/participate in the Fresh Fruit and Vegetable Program? The entire purpose of that program is to introduce kids to fresh fruits and vegetables that they may not have access to at home.

Edit - this is specifically separate from lunch. The idea is to introduce these foods in small quantities (a couple of bites) as a snack along with a fun/educational component sometime during the school day.

related to this, I've seen some school districts open up sharing tables, where students who are forced to pick up such items can instead leave them on a communal table. other students can pick them up and whatever is left is given to a charitable cause. how is this related to u/purplefrog8's situation?

http://www.cn.nysed.gov/common/cn/files/Sharing%20Tables%20Guidance.pdf

also, I do a lot of work in the food waste and food insecurity field and would love to talk about this more.

Share tables are definitely a good idea for reducing food waste!

from a federal perspective, are there any barriers to establishing something like this? any supports?

Here) is the USDA page on share tables.

Why are school lunches not proportional to your age? I get the same amount of food I'm getting in elementary school as I am in high school, its flat out just not enough.

Generally, portions should get larger based on age/grade level. There are some circumstances where a school would be allowed to serve the same portions to everyone based on a K-8 meal pattern.

What are the circumstances that would allow a school to give the same portion for a 5year old and an 17 year old? Why would this be allowed at all?

I actually misspoke - it's allowed for grades K-8 and is designed to simplify meal service when students from multiple grade groups eat together during the same lunch period.

My school lunch was literally the same food that the local state prison fed their prisoners. A friend of mine would write me letters occasionally and we would always write about the food that week.

How come the prisoners got more? School lunch was my only meal of the day and it always left me wanting more

There are calorie limits (minimum and maximum) in place for meals served under the NSLP. These vary by age/grade level. USDA encourages schools to offer as many programs as possible (School Breakfast Program, After School Snack, After-school At-Risk, etc.) to help meet needs outside of lunch.

Why are American school lunches so much less diverse than Korean school lunches, for example?

Many of the Korean lunches feature a diverse array of noodles, vegetables, tofu, carbs and assorted meats, all served in a neat and compartmentalized manner.

Edit: I haven't seen a school lunch in over a decade so please educate me if things have changed! :)

Also, thank you for what you do!

I wouldn't say that American lunches are less diverse - lunches served under the NSLP could also feature all of those things. I think that cultural preferences play a large part in this - most American schoolchildren would rather eat macaroni & cheese than rice & kimchi because that's the type of food that they're familiar with.

School lunches have to strike a fine balance. They should expose kids to new and different foods (especially fruits and vegetables) while meeting all of the regulatory requirements and also provide foods that the kids will eat.

The last time I partook in a school-supplied lunch was in 2003 in a very affluent white public school. Can you tell me what the biggest changes have been since I've interacted with school lunches that I might not be aware of?

Michelle Obama brought a major focus on children's health during her tenure as first lady. the Healthy Hunger-Free Kids Act brought significant changes to the NSLP. The two main ones visible on students' trays are whole grains and vegetable subgroups.

• All grain items served must be at least 50% whole-grain. This has lead to some interesting developments from major food companies (think whole-grain Pop-Tarts).
• All lunches must now contain servings of both fruits and vegetables
• Over the course of a week, schools must offer servings from each of the following subgroups:
  • Dark green
  • Red/Orange
  • Starchy
  • Beans/Peas/Legumes
  • Other

This has led to an increase in the variety of vegetables served to students. Edamame is a very popular choice among school lunches now!

Are there any resources in particular you would recommend to understand the specific requirements for lunches that schools currently need to abide by for the NSLP? Things like what falls under each of the subgroups above, what exactly is a "serving" here, and I believe I remember something about added-sugar guidelines from when I was in school, though that may be something else.

Ideally I would like to see if what I see as a decline in school lunch quality is:

1) First, actually a decline in quality
2) Then, whether it is the fault of poor regulations, even if well intentioned
3) Or finally, the fault of schools taking the easy way out of adhering to the regulations

You can read the regulations yourself! NSLP regulations are at 7 CFR Part 210. You can also browse around the link in my OP to find policy memos, FAQs and other items.

There are differences between countries with school lunches. Have you benchmarked your lunches to other countries? How would you rank yours in comparison to others?

I've often thought that this would be an interesting project! Even within a state, the quality of lunches can vary greatly from one school district to another, so it would be difficult to make a blanket statement about the entire country.

As a school custodian why does it feel like every other day is nacho day?

I apologize for all of the crumbs on behalf of my own children.

Is it true the reason for starting the school lunch program was under nourished military conscripts? Thx.

The current National School Lunch Program was primarily started to solve two concurrent problems:

1. Children in need of food
2. Farmers with surplus food

USDA purchased surplus food from farmers and made it available to schools in order to feed children.

There is a much more in-depth history available on the USDA website.

Which is best?

Hoagies and grinders Navy beans Meatloaf sandwich Or...

Yesterday's meatloaf is today's sloppy joes.

What entity provides oversight for individual schools? My mom became a lunch lady after her retirement to keep busy and would come home so upset because at least once a week kids were being given only corn for lunch. They served in three shifts and by third lunch that was all that was left to serve. This of course was in a poor district and for many kids it would be their only meal for the day. Her concerns were met with nothing but a shrug at the school level.

The School Food Authority for a district is responsible for monitoring individual schools. This is generally the school district itself, but in some cases a large school district may manage the food service for a smaller neighboring district. The State Agency monitors the School Food Authorities. The list of state agencies is available from USDA.

Thank you for running this great service! As a former beneficiary of this program, I am truly thankful to you...and especially my school lunch ladies! Questions:

• On a gut level, providing low-income students free lunches makes sense to me. But I have heard that the data doesn't show this actually helps students learn; can you speak to that?
• What are some reasons schools and communities don't like the program?
• What do you think about conservative ideologies that say that these programs create a "culture of dependence"?

Thank you.

On a gut level, providing low-income students free lunches makes sense to me. But I have heard that the data doesn't show this actually helps students learn; can you speak to that?

I have never personally done research into this, but I have seen reports by agencies such as FRAC that do seem to support the benefits of school meals outside of just nutrition.

What are some reasons schools and communities don't like the program?

The biggest complaints that I heard from schools were related to the regulatory and recordkeeping burdens of the program. Communities are also sometimes unsatisfied with the meal pattern requirements, although this can stem from a poor relationship between the school and community (or the school blaming problems on the program).

What do you think about conservative ideologies that say that these programs create a "culture of dependence"?

I think it would be great if no children had to rely on these programs for food. Until then, I'm glad these programs are in place.

How do you get the pizza so square?

Cut all the round parts off.

I'm curious about your last statement. if I'm not mistaken, NYC passed universal free lunch a few years ago. how does this fit within current regulations?

https://www.nycfoodpolicy.org/new-york-city-public-schools-offer-free-lunch-to-all-students/#:~:text=Beginning%20with%20the%202017%2D2018,200%2C000%20students%20with%20free%20lunch.

This was another new program introduced under the Healthy Hunger-Free Kids Act called the Community Eligibility Provision (CEP). It is available to any school participating in the NSLP based on "Direct Certification". Direct certification identifies children who are categorically eligible for free or reduced-price meals based on their participation in other benefit programs (such as SNAP). If a school (or school district) can directly certify at least 40% of its students, then they are eligible to participate in the CEP.

A school participating in CEP is required to offer meals at no charge to all students. The school also does not have to collect income eligibility applications at the beginning of each school year. The school receives reimbursement based on the percentage of students that are directly certified according to the following formula:

Direct Certification% * 1.6 = Free%
Total Meals * Free% = Meals reimbursed at Free rate
Total Meals - Meals reimbursed at Free rate = Meals reimbursed at Paid rate.

So if a school/district directly certifies 62.5% of its students, all meals are reimbursed at the Free rate.

Yes they did! Community Eligibility is a step NY state has taken to ensure greater numbers of students are receiving lunch every day and the studies that have been done in NY has shown that it is working. Also, a study found that it did not increase obesity in students, which is of course a positive. Community eligibility takes the shame and confusion out of free lunches and provides free lunches to all students in eligible communities. I’m hoping to see it expanded to more states

Just to clarify - CEP is currently available to every state, but participation is a district-level choice/qualification. Districts with less than 40% direct certification cannot participate and it is an option for districts >40%.

What is your opinion of the major corporate suppliers and catering contractors (I'm thinking companies like Sodexo) that have such a firm grasp on catering contracts across the country?

There are definitely pros and cons to contracting out the food service. I've been on both sides (I also previously worked for a food service contractor). I've seen great operations and terrible operations run by the same company. They are definitely not the cure-all that they market themselves as, but they are sometimes better than what a school could do for itself.

Thank you for getting on AMA. In terms of the quality of school lunches. Do you feel that the US is on par with other countries?

I haven't done any research into other countries, but I think this could be an interesting project!

One time in 4th grade my classmate lifted up the cheese to the square pizza and it was all gray-ish and promptly threw up. Which caused 2 more kids at the table to throw up. This chain effect continued when 3 girls sprinted out of the lunchroom and threw up. Later on when someone purposefully was describing this story in class (same day), 4 more students threw up. By the end of the day 80% of the kids threw up. This is the power you have sir, quite impressive 👍 would you eat what schools slop out?

Yes.

You mentioned legislation needing to change to end 'lunch debt', are there currently any bills in the works that we could support to this end? Anyone in Congress who is leading this charge?

I have not kept up with current legislative action. Child Nutrition programs are generally addressed in the Farm Bill, so they tend to kind of get lost in there.

In the 1970s, in elementary school, we were fed from these small aluminum disposable compartmentalized trays, that were packed in bulk and kept warm by steam, I think. The 'french fries" would become kind of slimy from the moisture. While wolfing them down, they would all seize up in our esophaguses in this 200 degree bolus of pain, somewhere in our chests. After some heaving and hits on the back, it would somehow dissolve and move on. Didn't stop us from eating them. Did you guys have a name for that? I have never encountered it elsewhere, in any type of food.

I think the scientific term may be "horking".

When i was in school (early 2000's) my mom couldn't afford the lunch reduced cost so i sat at a table with other kids whose parents couldn't afford it and we just didn't eat. Is this still a thing? The no lunch kids table? I always felt really embarrassed that i never had lunch. Eventually they let us hang out in the library so we didn't have to watch every one else eat.

All schools are required to have a policy for charging meals (this is related to the lunch debt question in my OP).

USDA has an entire page dedicated to unpaid lunch charges, although as I mentioned in my OP it's a very tricky area of the regulations.

Is the Mexican pizza from the early 90s still around, and if so, how can I order a crate?

Here you go.

Why is pizza a vegetable?!

Tomato sauce can count as a vegetable, but for pizza to count it generally has to have more sauce (and the sauce has to be thicker - more tomato solids/less water) than you would typically put on pizza.

Okay, to begin with where I'm coming from: I'm deaf.

It's a widely known fact in the deaf community that schools for the deaf provide free lunch for all students, and free breakfast/dinners for residential students. No charge on the behalf of students and parents.

These institutions are provided with funds from the government, so how come regular schools can't have the same thing?

Can you explain the discrepancy here?

That isn't universally true - not all schools for the deaf provide free lunch for all students. It's possible that your school may qualify for the Community Eligibility Provision that I mentioned in another response.

The basic answer is in my OP:

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Why can't we just give free lunches to everybody?

Because the current regulations impose an income test and specifically disallow schools from subsidizing the price of meals for students who don't qualify for free or reduced-price meals. Legislative change would be required for this. Schools are currently able to offer free meals to all students thanks to flexibilities and additional funding granted through various COVID relief acts.

I’ve been out of the school lunch systems for a minute, but it seems people are always complaining about them. Is there anyway to see what an average week of food would look like for kids today?

You should check the website for your local school district. Many districts publish their lunch menus online now!

Why can’t public schools have private food retailers on campus? Or if they can why is it not more readily adopted, when I was in high school it was understood the liability of driving to some place during lunch but almost all of us would have paid for anything other than the school lunches, even if it was only the healthy foods that were served

If a school participates in the NSLP, any food served must meet the meal pattern requirements - this would include any food retailers. In addition, there are procurement regulations that may make it difficult to contract with some outside entities. In addition, it can be difficult to fit the cost of these meals within the program reimbursement rates.

I have read that during the Obama administration Michelle worked to improve lunch quality/general nutrition. Were there any real impacts to the system/food quality? Or was it more PR than actual change?

Here's my response to another similar question:

Michelle Obama brought a major focus on children's health during her tenure as first lady. the Healthy Hunger-Free Kids Act brought significant changes to the NSLP. The two main ones visible on students' trays are whole grains and vegetable subgroups.

All grain items served must be at least 50% whole-grain. This has lead to some interesting developments from major food companies (think whole-grain Pop-Tarts).

All lunches must now contain servings of both fruits and vegetables

Over the course of a week, schools must offer servings from each of the following subgroups:

Dark green

Red/Orange

Starchy

Beans/Peas/Legumes

Other

This has led to an increase in the variety of vegetables served to students. Edamame is a very popular choice among school lunches now!

Where do I find the teriyaki finger steaks? I have looked everywhere since I graduated 11 years ago, but haven’t found THE TERIYAKI FINGER STEAKS

Was it these?

Do you believe that the Community Eligibility Provision program can be universalized for all schools? Do you think that the formula for qualification (poverty rate, etc) is needlessly prohibitive? Also, do you think there are areas in nutrition where the USDA needs to update its requirements ? (Breakfast/lunch requirements for reimbursable meals, religiously based diet restrictions, etc).

Do you believe that the Community Eligibility Provision program can be universalized for all schools?

Could it be? Of course, but it would literally require an act of congress.

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Also, do you think there are areas in nutrition where the USDA needs to update its requirements ? (Breakfast/lunch requirements for reimbursable meals, religiously based diet restrictions, etc).

I think that many of the HHFKA changes were steps in the right direction. I'm curious what you're looking for in terms of the religious dietary restrictions?

How did you get into your role? and how could others do the same?

I had a background in food service and accounting and thought the job sounded interesting! There are many roles available in a state agency office. Most employees are directly involved in reviewing applications and performing compliance monitoring visits. In our office, several of these employees had a background in nutrition/dietetics; others just had general experience with other government programs.

Here is the list of State Agencies responsible for USDA programs. You can find yours and look for jobs!

Have you ever read ‘Nudge’ by Richard Thaler? He actually talks about cafeterias and school lunches as an example of ‘choice architecture’ or more intellectually ‘liberal paternalism’.

When assigning lunches or structuring lunch programmes, have you ever felt enticed to lead students to pick the healthy options? By for example putting them front in the queue or instructing schools to do that?

I think that part of the idea behind the meal pattern requirements for the NSLP are to make it so that all of the options are (at least somewhat) healthy options. Even under the offer-versus-serve model (which allows children to decline some components of the meal), children are still required to take either a fruit or a vegetable.

Ultimately, the specific choices for how to organize a lunch line are up to each individual school and aren't covered in the regulations.

Is there a set average cost price per meal that you attempt to meet?

The amount of money spent on meals is up to each individual school district. Program regulations require schools to spend all of the money they receive from the program on food service - they can't take money from the cafeteria to support other areas. Congress sets the meal reimbursement rates annually.

My child has Celiac and cannot eat gluten. We have had her pack her lunch every day with foods she can eat, but the school also does a "snack" in the morning with sugary sweet foods and she feels left out. We talked to the nurse and the school now purchases gluten free choices, but none are as good as normal glutened food.

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Do you know of anything being done for allergy needs of students in public schools on a national level?

Schools participating in the National School Lunch Program are required to accommodate students with documented special dietary needs. This does not always mean offering exact substitutes.

I'm not sure whether the morning snack is part of one of the USDA programs or not, but it sounds like the school is making an effort to accommodate your child. If you have specific concerns about the foods being offered, you should definitely talk to your school and district staff.

Do you mean the US National School lunch program?There’s more than one in the world.

I can't update the title, but I've updated the OP to indicate that this is the US.