IamA Former Scientologist and Ex Sea Org Member that spent 4 years on the RPF. AMA!

What are some of the more memorable things you've witnessed?

Did you meet any celebrities during your tenure?

Are you being harassed by them currently?

How dead on was the South Park episode for Scientology?

What kind of food was on the Sea Org?

What did you think of the Breaking Bad finale?

Thanks for the IamA.

• I saw a few people lose their grip with reality and go just short of catatonic. From the outside, it looked like a sadness or depression hit so hard that the best they could do is phone in life... and they couldn't even be bothered with making the charade believable... or in another case get everyone confused with friends and family from back home. In short, the mental anguish.
• A couple, but I didn't spend a lot of time with them. I've met more since I've been out... but I also grew up in LA so I'm not easily star struck. There isn't much that I find terribly interesting about most celebrities.
• Not currently being harassed, that could change.
• It's true in that, that's the actual OTIII materiel, but most Scientologists don't know anything about it since most Scientologists are still on the lower grade chart. Still excellent satire all around.
• Mostly "normal" but the cooks had a hard time seasoning things... and cooking them completely... or cooking them too much... or cooking enough... and having it ready on time. Basically shitty don't give a fuck diner food. On the RPF it was worse since we ate after the normal crew and food frequently ran out. Plus the calorie requirements of doing all the physical labor were VERY difficult to keep up with. My family described me as "emaciated" when they saw me at that time.
• Didn't see it... about to netflix binge the whole series.
• No problem.

Do you think rich people and celebrities like Kirstie Alley and Tom Cruise know what Scientology is like for grunt members like you? Do you think they approve of the abuses or they're kept in the dark about it?

Do Scientologists read anti-Scientology literature or are they scared if learning OT III material prematurely?

What percentage of Scientologists are in on all the Xenu stuff?

• I don't think that they know, I don't think they are capable of knowing since they have spent so long in a position of awe and privilege among Scientologists. I think if they were to hear it straight from myself or others without bias, they would have too much of their own baggage to sift through for it to really register as anything other than "SP lies." As such, I don't really care. Fuck 'em. I don't have to pay for their shitty movies... although if Tom Cruise could stop doing Sci-Fi pictures, that would be great.

• As a Scientologist, you are explicitly told that just by READING the OTIII materiel, you could die and that it could really fuck up your mental state. When I read it, nothing happened... in fact, its so often referenced as the great cataclysm that happened 67 million years ago, and with all the other space opera stuff littered throughout SCN, it came as no surprise and I was kinda disappointed.

• I couldn't really say... a relatively small minority is my best guess.

How can Scientology recruit people in the age of the internet? Seems to me that one Google search for "Scientology" by a prospective recruit is enough to demolish that prospect.

I don't think it can.... unless there is a base of current Scientologists large enough to keep reproducing and making more good Scientologists... but as far as new raw meat off the street... I think the internet can be successful in inoculated entire generations of people.

My Question: Please tell me what all of the acronyms you have used mean.

Sea Org--- Sea Organization

RPF-- Rehabilitation Project Force ie. Sea Org jail. The people in the picture in this link... their first names are Anna and Chester.

Chester was pretty regularly berated for "being slack" at one point this culminated in him being "overboarded." He was stripped of his wallet, shoes and watch and doused with a hose in front of the entire RPF with a little ceremony.

What was it that made you want to 'get out' and how did this process occur?

I wanted to get out when I was on the RPF. I had recently lost my left eye due to an accident and I was being denied visitation to or by my mother during her cancer treatments (I ran away and saw her anyway... that didn't go over well). This was after the process of being assigned to the RPF which clearly violated SCN justice procedures and making no gains from what by all accounts are "standard Scientology"

There was no end in sight, I was being hospitalized roughly every 6 months (cut bad cuts on hands, taking a copper pipe to the eye, more bad cuts on the hands, sawzall dropped on my leg by another worker, bad scald on my hand and arm).

First was to just get out of the Sea Org which took about 8 months. I probably could have just walked away at a certain point, but then I would literally be out on the street with no support structure of any kind... I knew that I would need the help of my SCN family to re-integrate into society. I also still considered myself a Scientologist, but was only dealing with one set of contradictions at a time.

Once I was out of the Sea Org and off the RPF, I finally had the mental space to start processing my experiences. Its hard to think when you are kept hungry and exhausted. After some not great experiences with Scientologists, I decided it was time to just drop the label all together. I've not considered myself a Scientologist for nearly 10 years.

Have you been billed for your auditing and classes since you left CoS?

I had a friend who was in Clearwater SeaOrg for a year, split and they chased her for $45,000 which she eventually had to pay....

They gave me a bill. I haven't given them shit and my credit rating is unaffected.... still a shit credit rating though... but when you don't have a credit history and try to enter society 6 years too late with insufficient education and support, its better than I expected.

So you're staying anonymous, however we know you're from LA, your parents were Scientologists, you worked the RPF and the timeframes you were there, you lost an eye while working there as well as running away to see your mother who was undergoing cancer treatments. Don't you think that's pretty much enough info for them to identify you?

I like the idea of someone doing needless busy work to figure it out.

Apologies if you've answered elsewhere already, but did you lose your eye from the copper pipe incident?

YUP...

Camera 2 is down... Repeat, CAMERA TWO IS DOWN.

Gonna need a medic.

Cripes, that's terrible. Were folks at least appropriately horrified when the incident occurred?

Yeah, but that wasn't exactly comforting at the time. Popped that little fucker like a zit.

what kind of labour did you do? What were they using you for that caused all these workplace incidents?

Skilled labor ranging from structural concrete and steel work, to carpentry, plumbing, electrical, HVAC as well as just general cleaning.

What do people DO in SeaOrg?

By that I mean, you have all these ships, a big private navy... and where do they go? Is it just a non-stop "pleasure" cruise? Are you transporting things?

Also, are the actual sailors (like people who know how to make the boat work) certified and trained inside the church or outside it like regular sailors? Are they hired on?

Ok... so the Sea Org is pretty much entirely on land these days and has been since the early 80's. The only ship the CoS operates is the Freewinds, which is entirely contaminated with asbestos.

So while there is a nautical tradition holdover to the Sea Org... shit I think I only even made it to the beach once while I was there... there are no boats.

As far as what the Sea Org does, it mostly revolves around the highest levels of Church Management, the CoS social betterment organizations and publishing groups. Everyone in the Sea Org is a Scientologist of the highest dedication.

I heard the pay sucks but I assume you get some sort of spending money and housing if it's for the elites.

They pay sucks ass. $50 bucks per week for all Sea Org staff. Room and board is provided. Exceptions are for Bridge Publications, New Era Publications and ABLEInt. They get paid their state/countries minimum wage and have to pay their local Sea Org individually for room and board. Oh... and its not a real minimum wage. Its the 40 hours per week , despite the fact that we often found ourselves working 80-100 hour weeks.

Is the mythology- I.e. Xenu, thetans, etc.- as bizarre as we're led to believe, or has it been exaggerated?

Whatever you think you know about Scientology, its actually much worse. The Xenu story is true, but most Scientologists don't know it... but stuff about the Marcab Confederacy, Invader Force Five (a race of bugs) and other seriously old school Sci-Fi stuff is littered throughout the early lectures and books.

So, there is actually a very rich Space Opera mythos... but it all happened a long time ago... in a galaxy far away.

As a former bookstore officer at a very large org in the clearwater area, I can say that everything this man says is true. Good job getting out my friend, you were in so much deeper than I ever was and my experiences were terrifying. I cannot imagine the Sec-checks you endured going through the route-out checklists given your position. Did you ever go to Gold? Did you see inside? I knew of someone back then who claimed to have seen one of the "timelines" on the wall at one of the major orgs, could have even been gold or in the least somewhere at flag or the Sandcastle. She claimed that she had to sign a million-dollar-bond in order to even be in the room. Claimed the timeline involved something having to do with the planet as a whole and almost alluded to invader forces "coming back". Ever seen or heard of such a "timeline"? I think this would correlate with trementia base in NM....Once again, good job getting out, fuck the SO. They were always so arrogant (no offence lol).

I have heard of it and I'm trying to remember where it supposedly is... but a good amount of time has passed. If you were a BSO between 96 and 98, I was likely one of the arrogant SO douches at Bridge you had to deal with.

If not me... some other cumstain.... but for what its worth, I apologize.

What positives have you gotten from your Scientology experience?

Scientology's investigative procedure and system of logic is pretty decent at cutting through bullshit. If it wasn't for that, I'd still be a Scientologist.

Extremely ironic.

Deliciously Ironic.

The only thing anyone needs to escape from the mental traps of Scientology... is standard Scientology.

investigative procedure and system of logic is pretty decent at cutting through bullshit.

is there any book specifically about that?

The "Investigative Tech" is contained in the "Data Series" of Policy Letters written by Hubbard. They contain a range of... well types of details that you look for in evaluating information and what these details tell you about the information itself and lines of questioning that should be pursued. As an example, when you have contrary facts, you know right away that one or both are false. Omitted data also spawns questions as to why the data was omitted in the first place.

Ironically, there's also conditions of Sanity and Conditions of insanity included in there as well.

Interesting system as a whole but by no means complete or foolproof.

Why did you get sent to the RPF in the first place?

Mis-managing accounts. I was sent before a Committee of Evidence, which could not come to an approved decision in the allotted time so the process was cancelled. That should have been the end of it, but the Director if Investigations and Reports (Hi Jenny) petitioned the local RTC representative (Hi Jesse) to have the process extended. The process was canceled three times in total and I had since gone through other procedures on my own in the interim to make up the damage and correct my behavior (all according to SCN policy on ethics and justice).

I was assigned to the RPF by fiat and in violation of Church Policy. I never met the person that sent me there and requested several review actions which never went anywhere.

I worry this answer could identify you, if the CoS sees this.

Good, then they could blow me.

And at what age were you assigned to RFP for "mismanaging accounts"?

I was 19.

What is the thing about your former life that non-Scientologists would be most surprised by?

Living, working and safety conditions on the RPF. I was housed in a dormitory with 30+ other dudes, allowed no more than 7 hours between lights out and lights on, was fed what amounts to scraps (even though there were specific policies stating otherwise), had to run EVERYWHERE all the time and worked dangerous jobs with woefully insufficient safety gear. I was frequently denied bathroom breaks while working and pissed myself several times over the years.

During that time:

• I sliced my hand on a metal stud while hanging drywall (somebody dropped the sheet, I tried to catch it, buy clamping it against the stud with my hand... the weight dragged it down and cut three of my fingers to the bone.)

• While demolishing a section of the building to be renovated, it was deemed the most efficient thing would be to throw a bunch of people at it, so virtually the whole of the RPF (about 200 people) was in about 6000 sq feet of building space tearing down walls by hand. There weren't enough tools, gloves or safety glasses to go around and I took a copper pipe to the left eye as a result.

Shit, there's a lot more to it but those are probably the most relevant examples.

[deleted]

I'm guessing manipulation/blackmail?

Manipulation and coercion. Most people are agree to go to the RPF on the condition that they aren't declared a Suppressive Person, which would cause their families to disconnect from them and completely undermine any structure they have out of the Sea Org. You'd be sent to a strange town where you have no connections and a pittance of severance pay ($500). The picture that is painted is that you'll be out on the street with your possessions, in a strange place with no prospects.

Add to that years or decades of conditioning that your spiritual freedom is contingent on your good standing in Scientology.

With OTIII content being well known by the general public, do you have any idea what the response is when someone reaches that level and finds out what they've been denying for years is actually true? I see Scientologists being greeted with "hail xenu" by passerbys and them refuting it. I can't help but wonder how they react to opening the briefcase and finding out it was actually a thing.

You know what... I don't actually know. I think I have one friend that might have gone through that exact experience, so I'd have to ask him.

What I do know is that when OT stuff is presented by protesters, GREAT pains are taken to isolate any non-OT staff and public from the protesters and only have OT staff and public deal with them...

What is your current Thetan level at?

Believe it or not, Thetan levels isn't actually a thing in Scientology.

Do you have any idea how that idea came to be? I know this is probably over-simplifying things, but I thought, according to Scientology, a soul is constantly reincarnated until it is "thetan-less." How do they measure thetans? Am I just totally wrong about the whole idea?

The South Park episode erroneously referred to "thetan levels". Probably from that.

Yup.

Still lol'ed.

Then why did you write this above?:

As a Scientologist, you are explicitly told that just by READING the OTIII materiel, you could die and that it could really fuck up your mental state.

What does OT stand for?

Operating Thetan... as in the individual is operating in a manner more like an immortal spiritual being and less like a MEST body.

How do you regard Christianity and maybe other religions with respect to indoctrination and spiritual basis?

I don't give a shit which magic sky fairy someone chooses to believe in. If it prompts someone to be a better person, help those around them and otherwise make the world less of a shit hole, I'll celebrate their holidays with them and, light their candles and eat their food.

Gay-to-straight conversion camps piss me the fuck off. Creationism/Intelligent Design or whatever else it might be called is just circuitous denial of reality and a celebration of delusion that should not be tolerated.

I am not terribly fond of the Abrahambic religions due to their endorsement of misogyny, slavery and other barbaric practices and beliefs, but the reformed churches, temples and mosques have done good work and I believe are composed of largely genuinely decent people on most days.

Fundamentalist pricks of any stripe are a blight upon the world.

Of all your answers on this AmA, you seem most emotionally spurred by a question about your view on the spiritual/supernatural. Do you think this is blow back from your time with Scientology? I assume at some point you believed in the existence of a "soul", what made you believe otherwise? Sorry if I'm twisting things, I'm respectfully curious.

That would be accurate.

In Scientology you are taught that you are an immortal spiritual being, with no end and no beginning. You have lived many lives and done most of the things you only read about or see in movies. As a being of infinite potential, you are capable of affecting the flow of time, perceptions of the less able and the very fabric of the universe. Every aspect of Scientology is set up to support this truth.

But what happens when you find that you stumble on an incontrovertible set of facts that contradicts all that you ever knew or believed?

The RPF broke me. And its the fact that they broke me I find even more damaging. You have no idea how hard it is to be told all your life that you are immortal, timeless and unstoppable and then suddenly find out that you can be broken.

It took breaking me physically to show me that I wouldn't last and that the damage wouldn't fade. First they made me bleed. It was the first cut I ever had that needed real attention to prevent dangerous blood loss and further pain. Then, they took my back. The one thing that every work safety video tells you to avoid hurting. Damaging a back has a way of bending a person... making them a slave to their pain. I can fake it because I was taught how to let non-shocking pains wash over me. They made me bleed again, but I was cut with a scorching hot blade so the wound was cauterize almost immediately, I still got 20-some-odd stitches... and despite the lidocaine, felt every one. All this time, I knew I would heal, that I would overcome, that I would remain whole and timeless.

It took various cuts later and burn, until they finally took my eye. Until then, I thought I was immortal, timeless. Until then, I couldn't see the end. Until then, I hadn't experienced real pain.

The initial pain of losing my eye, should have been much more severe, when in fact, it hurt very little... but I KNEW, what had just happened. Camera 2 had just gone down and none of these chuckle heads knew how to fix it. That's what hurt. Then came not knowing what was happening to me. I knew I was blind, I knew I was fucked, but in getting over to the hospital, was the first time I had physically reacted to pain. All pain up until that point was in my head, just “loud” signals that the damaged area sent upstairs. This was pain that sent a very quiet signal, no worse that bumping into a counter on the way out of the kitchen.

But the reaction in my guts was astounding. I was immediately nauseous. I held it back from the 6th floor Main Building to the security offices by the horseshoe. I wanted it to come when the medic was patching up my eye. A comedic strike back at the institution that hurt me. But my guts weren't ready to launch, so I held it.

I held it for the two block car ride to the emergency room. I held it on the bed until the doctor looked at me. I held it for the IV being put in and the specialist being called. I held it until the Ophthalmologist called in his team and prescribed a steroid. I held it until I just had to relax.

Then it came. My guts had shut down everything. Undigested food was jettisoned as cargo too heavy to make it home. All fuel must be used getting to safety. Today, safety was on an operating room table under a microscope.

I woke up from the surgery knowing that I wasn't going to die soon, but that I was going to die.

Every day from that point on was spent dealing with the problems of a finite life.

And I'll be honest, the pain sucks, the physical wrenching my damaged body accumulating day after day, but the worst is knowing that it will end me, that one day, I will be so hurt and damaged, that I won't be able to get back up.

Fascinating. A man who thought he was immortal discovering his own mortality. Sounds like the plot of another space opera!

I'll sell you the rights.

Your eye account has me sobbing and angry. I am so very sorry you suffered this injury and the many others you have indicated. I want to just hug you.

Thank you... On my good days I am very huggable and would absolutely hug you back.

Crazy. I'd have some pretty deep-rooted shit going on too if I had to live through that. Horrible. I hope you haven't built up too many walls in your life because of that small group of assholes.

Hate to jump around, but as an insurance agent I gotta ask, did you ever file a work comp claim for your injuries (mental but especially physical)? It seems to me your were volunteering for your "church" when you were injured.

The initial surgeries were handled through Workers Comp as well as some after-care. Once I was out of the Sea Org, it became increasingly difficult to get any kind of compensation or attention and I was in no position to start a shit storm by suing.

Do you see similarities between Scientology and gay-to-straight conversion camps?

The RPF is more severe than what I know of conversions camps and there were a few gay/bi people on the RPF. Queerness of any kind is considered to be "low" on the emotional tone scale and subsequently destructive. So, even when SCN tries to handle it with auditing, there is a certain amount of condescension and expectation of appeasement built into the process.

So, yeah... it could be said that there are some parallels.

Has anyone made a criminal complaint against the RPF for kidnapping? Why aren't these methods known by more people? I know they are lawsuit heavy but in 2013 almost anyone not in the bubble knows how insane Scientology is, so why haven't those who escaped been more vocal if they have already been separated by their families?

• Yes.
• Not enough of us speak up.
• Fear.

The fear when you are in... that you might be declared an SP... is crippling... it keeps you from even considering speaking to outside authorities. Not only that but the entire premise of the Sea Org is that they operate by their own rules and only conform to societal norms if there is a legal imperative. It doesn't help that LAPD officials and the LA County Sheriff are friendly to the CoS.

There was an FBI probe into Human Traffic charges that went nowhere because they couldn't get a current RPF'er to testify. The sad thing is that it IS human trafficking. While on the RPF you are striped of state ID, credit cards etc and are allowed to have no more than $20 on you at any given time. Even when I did run away, I did so in the grey and black uniform and with a handful of cash, some metro tokens and few memorized phone numbers.

I was still recovered.

I was still recovered.

By the CoS?

Mind elaborating on that? How far did you get? Did they just pull up to you in a black van and toss you in? Did you resist?

Copypasta from another response.

I did "blow" (take an unauthorized leave) myself. When my mom was undergoing cancer treatments, I wasn't allowed to see her without supervision and when I was denied visitation and communication all together, I scrounged up some Metro tokens, memorized my sisters cell phone number and ducked out a door that I thought might not be alarmed.

After running for a block, a member of PAC Security came up behind me on a bike asking me where I was going.

I matter of factly replied, "To see my mom, she has cancer."

This guy tried to block my route but I managed to get around him and we were coming up on the Vermont and Santa Monica metro station, so him physically grabbing me would have caught a lot of attention.

I openly admitted that my CSW (request for leave) to see her was denied and that I going anyway. He said that he was coming with me, but managed to lose him as he struggled with his bike and to pay his fare for the train. I ran down into the crowd, ducked behind some pillars and ran up another staircase and watched him as he checked the cars of the outbound train. I watched him give up and leave the station at which point I got on the next train.

I was able to spend some time with my mom and got to see my sister play softball. Of course, my sister isn't the brightest bulb in the bunch so when the RPF I/C called her cell, she immediately gave up where we were and I had Security and MAA's at the park telling me it was time to go back to base. I couldn't rightfully put my mom through the additional stress of taking me in on top of her already painful treatments.

That was part 2 of the beginning of the end for me.

Years later, I found out that she had nearly died and was on an experimental therapy as a last shot. She's been in remission ever since.

do people in scientology ever question the teachings?

do scientologists know what a lunatic Miscavige is?

My opinion of scientologists seem to be on par with North Koreans. They dont know any different and arent allowed to even think differently. is that a fair comparison?

• No.
• No.
• Close enough.

A more nuanced view would include that most Scientologists are genuinely well meaning people with some fucked up ideas about the world. Quite a few are really quite decent and interesting in their own right... but yes, they are being controlled.

What was a normal day for you when you were a child in Scientology schools? Do you notice the difference between those schools and the schools you attended before? If so, what surprised you the most?

Ok. So a normal high-school or middle school consists of various periods, starting with your home room class and in your various classes at different periods you have different teachers instructing on different subjects.

None of that happens in a Scientology school.

All subjects of a particular grade level are divided into Checksheets, once you complete all the checksheets (each of which is followed by a test on which you must get a passing grade) and take an exam for that level, you can graduate into the next grade. This is overseen by an array of supervisors that can help on any given subject or at least point you in the right direction.

This on its own, is not terrible and certainly has some merits.

What is problematic is Hubbard's Study Tech, which is just another form of conditioning. While there are basic notions in there like making sure you understand all the words in the subject you are studying, looking at diagrams and schematics for detailed procedures or processes and making sure you are studying at the correct level... Hubbard constructed an entire mythos of what a good student looks like while studying and any departure from that image is handled by ensuring the student can define EVERY word in the materials without context and other arduous scholastic exercises.

The "study tech" itself is a fairly large subject on its own and deserving of its own criticism that I can't totally do justice here.

How hard is it to leave the church, do you know anyone who's been sent to that prison thing where the leader had his wife locked up?

Its hard depending on how how you mean. Is it physically difficult to leave the Sea Org? You will get stopped and questioned when someone sees you packing your bags, you will be sent to ethics, you will be harassed to stay and get your shit together. You will be physically prevented from leaving in some cases.

Leaving in such a way that I had everyone convinced that I wasn't a an SP or a PR problem took about 8 months. Some people on the RPF resorted to swallowing bleach to move things along... 8 months of hell is still 8 months of hell.... but I am very patient.

Are your parents still Scientologists?

When you were a Scientologist, what was an average day like?

Have you ever been to the Scientology HQ in Clearwater, FL?

• My dad is, my mom is not. I have a great relationship with my mom. My dad and I rarely talk.
• Technically I was raised in SCN, but my first indoctrinations were around 1986 (I was 8 or so) and I was sent to Scientology schools at 10. I had joined the Sea Org at 18 and was sent to the RPF just before I turned 20 and managed to get out just a few days short of 4 years later. There are several examples of average days in there, which one interests you most?
• I was posted in Los Angeles and have worked in the management buildings here that manage the West US and International affairs. Technically the CoS HQ is in Los Angeles on the corner of Hollywood and Ivar. I was never sent to the Clearwater and avoid Florida like the plague to this day.

[deleted]

They aren't. Long since divorced.

But Clearwater is beautiful!

Its still on America's wang.

I read the book "Inside Scientology" by Janet Reitman. It was an interesting book, but didn't go in to much depth about the motivations for people to become scientologists.

How did your parents become scientologists? I'm assuming they weren't scientologists to begin with and made the choice when they were adults. The folks managing memberships must be doing a really good job of selling the idea of scientology or there is something fundamentally different about the people who choose to join. I am more inclined it the latter. I don't mean to offend you or your parents; you were born into this religion and probably assumed it to be a way of life, like kids born into the "normal religions". I am really curious to know what scientology does for its members that motivates them to continue being members despite the high costs (other than spiritual satisfaction, which you can get from any religion i guess)

TL;DR Why do people join and more importantly when they do join, what keeps them there (even though its so expensive to become one and progress through its levels)?

Scientology is VERY good at what they call "finding a person's ruin." In talking with them, a trained disseminator (that sounds dirty) is adept in finding the area of your life that you are struggling with or wish to improve. Even if there is no elephant in the room at the beginning of the conversation, they are likely to find one an certainly make it appear to be the root of any troubles or unhappiness. Then they show you how Scientology can help you with that.

Any other problems are solved with more Scientology.

Also, in the 70's this sort of new agey techno-religion was pretty trendy.

In a few of your responses you mention that your left eye was injured in an accident with a copper pipe. In one of the responses it sounds as if you lost the eye "I had recently lost my left eye due to an accident..."

Did the accident with the copper pipe, while you were on the RPF, result in the loss of vision in your left eye? If so, did those in charge get you to an emergency room as soon as possible?

Yeah...I've been kinda dancing around this one... so I might as well tell the whole story.

There was a portion of the 6th floor of the PAC main building (Big Blue) that needed to be demolished. In somebodies great wisdom, it was deemed that the most efficient thing would be to throw the whole RPF at it. So, one evening, virtually everyone (about 200 people) was sent up there to tear down all the walls, ceilings etc and remove all the rubble. There wasn't nearly enough tools or safety gear to go around and it rapidly degenerated into people just tearing the place apart by hand. The Mongel hordes have nothing on us. As a group of people (friends of mine at the time that were notorious for being fucking barbarians when it comes to work) were tearing a wall apart that had just been knocked over, I was navigating a pile of nearby rubble on my way to the next thing that needed to be knocked over... They were pulling at the framing at different angles forcing it to come apart and they dislodged a copper pipe that went straight into my left eye.

I stopped... I screamed... so loud that 200 maniacs stopped working (there's also the SCN policy of shutting the fuck up when someone is hurt to avoid suggestion-like affects) and fell over. Some tried to get me up and I came up kicking and punching... then the shock set in again and I fell.

One of the security staff was a trained medic, I was taken to him for bandaging and was taken to the emergency room over at Queen of Angels.

Later when I was interviewed by the OSHA inspector, I was instructed to lie about the safety equipment and tools available and to claim that the whole accident was due to my own exuberance... which I did... which I regret.

Babe. I've been reading the thread, and staying quiet, but this answer really got me. I know I've heard this story a hundred times, but seeing it shared with strangers makes my heart hurt for you all over again. I love you, and you have me in awe of your strength and conviction everyday. You're awesome.

You're excellent.

She won't say it, but she really appreciates you saying so... as do I.

You know, it's not too late to get a lawyer and nail them for not only gross safety violations but also pressuring you to lie. This is extremely illegal.

I was raised in a cult and there are certain things in normal society that I am woefully ignorant about. I wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to the American tradition of Suing the everyloving shit out of someone.

However, I'm pretty decent at talking shit on the internet.

When scientologists sue their detractors, what is the emotional atmosphere of the case? Are people mad, disappointed, etc.?

Depends on who it is... Scientologists are certainly mad and hurt by defections from Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun... but even then and in earlier cases where a detractor or defector is being sued, its mostly kept away from the average Scientologist.

It is only when these legal battles result in a victory are they trotted out in front of the Scientology public. When the CoS bought out the Cult Awareness Network, when they were in bankruptcy is a good example.

I'm from Clearwater. The people walking around downtown in their white shirts and black pants just seem like nice people with a lot of money that they have decided to spend seeking some kind of enlightenment or superpowers or something. Is The Sea Org about achieving enlightenment, or is it just a sadistic prison camp?

Nether.

Its the people in the pink shirts and khaki pants that are in the prison camp. They are mostly in the internal spaces, building furnature or taking care of the landscaping. They work 9-14 hours per day 7 days a week. When they aren't working 14 hour days they get 5 hours for their enhancement time which consists of co-audit training and processing. They are completely cut off from their friends and family and have no access to outside media or luxury items of any kind. They possess only their uniforms and hygiene supplies. I can't speak to their living situation as I was never on the Flag RPF.

The people in the white shirts and black pants don't have a lot of money. They are paid $50 per week and are housed in dormitories. They work 80-100 hour weeks more often than not and are only allowed a half day "off" once per week to clean their dorms and do their laundry.

They all however are seeking enlightenment, but they aren't likely to find it there.

Can you explain why you left scientology? Also, what effects do you think affected your childhood by being raised in a religion like scientology? I'm always interested in mentality of people who were raised in an environment such as scientology.

This response covers your first question.

As for the second part... to this day I still think and communicate like a Scientologist. In terms of vocabulary, I have mostly figured out a way to translate Scilon speak and concepts into normal language and have have managed to disregard the more harmful things (mostly the stuff that leads to so much victim blaming).

There is no real hope that I'll ever relate to the world as a "normal" person... which is OK, I like the person I've become, but the Scientology thought process and playbook is something I can only add to at this point, I don't think I'll ever be able to shed it fully.

Can you explain in what ways you think your though process it's different than that of regular people?

I will come back around to this and try... but that question might be better answered by some of my close friends that have never been involved in SCN...

I may call a friend.

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Edit:

One example is that most of the time my emotions and thoughts are very compartmentalized... to the point that what I think and what I feel often have very little to do with each other. This has its advantages at times...

I address "problems" differently... and instinctively in accordance to Scientology's theories on the subject... According to SCN, a problem is the result of two opposing forces or goals... and as such the most efficient way to solve the problem is to undermine or redirect one of those elements.

I address conflict differently... I generally try to find some kind of core upset that someone has with me or the group (whatever the case may be) and see if I can defuse or address that.

I'm sorry... this one is a hard one and is probably very subtle in most cases.

My uncle's widow is a Scientologist in Miami, and she's raising my cousins in the church. I'm sort of at a loss for how I can carry on a relationship with them. Do you have any advice on how Scientologist and non-Scientologist relatives can still be family?

Also, I know someone that lived with his parents at some sort of Scientologist commune in Florida when he was little. They decided they wanted to leave at some point and basically had to run for their lives in the middle of the night. Do you know anything about these kinds of "communes" and what goes on there?

Sorry I am so late in getting to you... and this will be hard... but as someone that was raised in, please do all you can to stay close to your cousins. They will still be mostly normal until the recruitment for staff and services get really rolling.

But here's the thing that's important be family to them first. I know its easy to be upset by the things that the CoS does and it would seem that your family is complicit in it (and they are to a certain extent) but they don't know the truth of the matter and the facts as I've laid them out here are "un-confrontable" to them. They don't even know they have this blind spot but they are likely to rationalize any criticism of Scientology because of their own gains and indoctrination.

I've said elsewhere, that the only thing anyone needs to recover from Scientology is Standard Scientology... but when they do get out, they're going to need you and your support. Please don't make them feel like shit about things that they can't even understand. Doing so only proves the church right about the critics of Scientology.

As far as the "commune" goes, yes, I know exactly what goes on there. I was in one in LA and that is what much of the rest of this AMA is about.

If you EVER need any questions or advice about dealing with your family in SCN or understanding what the fuck they are about, do not hesitate to ask. I'm just a PM away and will help in any way I can.

What do you know about the chase teams that go after people who escape gold base in California?

We had a similar thing on the RPF. When somebody would "blow" (leave without authorization) which would happen every few months, many of us would be mobilized to watch train stations, airports bus-stops and the like. If they were local, people were sent to their old friends and family to try and track them down.

What would happen when you caught the person?

We would corner them if possible. Follow them if necessary, call security for a ride and otherwise coerce them to come back to base.

I would definitely like to hear more about this. How did they decide who to send to get them back (i.e how did they know you wouldn't just go "hey, I'm already at a train station" and exfil)? In what way were they coerced? Classic mind trickery, peer pressure, incentives, threats, etc.? Can you tell us about a time you had to do this, or what it was like if it happened to you? I'd never heard of this happening before, and its opened a lot of questions in my mind about the operational capabilities of the CoS.

They use the buddy system. If you're on the RPF and you get sent to look for someone, first you have to be "doing well" on the program... for a time I was pretty consistently chosen, After than you have to look like you can belong where you are being sent, then you have one or more people with you that are similarly chosen and you're all told to watch each other.

Peer pressure takes care of the rest.

Shit, that sounds harsh, any specific stories you could share?

Well, there's the two RPFers that made it to Mexico. One of them was from there and they were engaged in all kinds of sexytime (RPFers are supposed to be celibate). I have no idea how they were recovered... but even at the time I thought they were dumb for coming back. You don't live the dream that big and hard just to come back to a prison never to talk to each other again.

I personally never found or recovered anyone but I did "blow" (take an unauthorized leave) myself. When my mom was undergoing cancer treatments, I wasn't allowed to see her without supervision and when I was denied visitation and communication all together, I scrounged up some Metro tokens, memorized my sisters cell phone number and ducked out a door that I thought might not be alarmed.

After running for a block, a member of PAC Security came up behind me on a bike asking me where I was going.

I matter of factly replied, "To see my mom, she has cancer."

This guy tried to block my route but I managed to get around him and we were coming up on the Vermont and Santa Monica metro station, so him physically grabbing me would have caught a lot of attention.

I openly admitted that my CSW (request for leave) to see her was denied and that I going anyway. He said that he was coming with me, but managed to lose him as he struggled with his bike and to pay his fare for the train. I ran down into the crowd, ducked behind some pillars and ran up another staircase and watched him as he checked the cars of the outbound train. I watched him give up and leave the station at which point I got on the next train.

I was able to spend some time with my mom and got to see my sister play softball. Of course, my sister isn't the brightest bulb in the bunch so when the RPF I/C called her cell, she immediately gave up where we were and I had Security and MAA's at the park telling me it was time to go back to base. I couldn't rightfully put my mom through the additional stress of taking me in on top of her already painful treatments.

That was part 2 of the beginning of the end for me.

Years later, I found out that she had nearly died and was on an experimental therapy as a last shot. She's been in remission ever since.

Why did Hubbard invent Scientology in your opinion? Is it simply a grab for money and power or do you believe high-ranking members truly believe in it?

I think that he was a very sick man subject to many delusions that drove him to do incredible and terrible things. I am pretty sure that he believed his own myth and that Miscavige believes his own myth.

In short, nobody that's running the con thinks its a con. That's a big reason why its so convincing.

How accurate is Wise Beard Man Mark Bunker? Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bunker

Wise Beard Man is the shit.

I work in a major metropolitan area and walk past a Scientology recruiting office every day. They are always outside trying to lure people in for personality tests. What is the best way to get these people to leave me alone? Should I tell them I'm an SP?

Depends on how nice you want to be about it. You could make a habit of reciting the Xenu story when you walk by or you could just consistently troll them and throw them off their patter. They're not likely to immediately react... but I would encourage you to have fun with it.

What did you have for breakfast?

Tea... going to have some tamales with this AMA.

Correct.

I don't even know what this means... but I like it.

My girlfriend is a psychologist. I've heard they think ridiculous things about psychologists, is this true? If so, please, elaborate!

Also, given we're on the topic of my girlfriend, what is the CoS's position on homosexuality?

First of all, kiss your girlfriend for me. I don't know either of you but I already think you're both amazing.

Otherwise... yes SCN has some SUPER crazy shit to say about psychology and psychiatry. They are derogatorily referred to as "psychs" and are blamed for all of societies problems. It goes further than that though... in the SCN mythos, we've all lived hundreds and hundreds of lives for billions of years, going back to old galactic confederacy and other sci-fi shit. In the past we were more capable than we are now, had powers that we could only imagine and some of us wanted to control others and enforce their version of order on everyone else so they designed these "implants" that were really processes that made you forget or become fervently fanatical about something or obsessed with something else. Imagry that we would associate with conventional religions were part of this... pushing and pulling energy was another part of this. And gradually all these space-faring societies composed largely of demi-god-like creatures were reduced down to boring, simple irrational humans.

But the ones that did it. The ones that started it all, those are today's psychiatrists and psychologists.

That is the basis for the irrational fear and hate of the mental health industry... which for all the legitimate criticisms that can be leveled... this at least is entertaining.

In terms of homosexuality... it is frowned upon in SCN and viewed as an "abberation" and "low" on the tone scale and inherently destructive.

Obviously, they're full of shit. What you and your girlfriend have is beautiful.

Correct me if I'm wrong OP, but what I understand about Scientology's hatred of psychologists and psychiatrists stems from the Hubbard basically being batshit crazy and evaluated as such by psychiatrists/psychologists. He didn't like that and such built it into his religion. It's incredibly childish and quite humorous when you think about it.

Pretty much, but his version of super crazy made it so that his childish impulses crafted an elaborate fantasy that he believed as well.

There's also been discussion about the possibility of him being high as balls the entire time.

Honestly, I still kinda admire the guy for his epic crazy and enormous balls. Everybody should try to live the dream... unless your dream is ludes and peyote... then you should just visit occasionally.

How does one get sent to the RPF? Do you chose to go or is it a punishment? What were the reason why you ended up at the RPF?

It is a punishment and you have to sign a bunch of waivers (under duress I might add, not a single thing I signed in SCN that wasn't a result of some institutional pressure or another).

Shit I can do better than this... here's the Wikileaks dump on the RPF flag orders.

Long story short, any Sea Org member can be sent to the RPF for a variety of reasons. I was sent for mismanaging accounts. Some are sent for a very specific e-meter phenomena called an "L-1 R/S" which is a Rockslam (a needle read that indicates an evil purpose) that is triggered by things related to Scientology or Hubbard... in short, evil purposes regarding Scientology.... those are relatively few.

A few more are sent for fucking things up in other areas... but most are there for some amount of pre-marital or extra-marital sexytimes.

So... yeah, the whole place smelled of repression.

I'm almost finished with the book "Beyond Belief". I'm inclined to believe a lot of things the author is writing about. If you did read it, is there a lot of fact in what she wrote about the Sea Org and Scientology in general?

I haven't read it, but I have "spoken" to Jenna in passing in various venues and am familiar with her story... so I can say that while I wasn't there for her experiences and only met her after the fact (and vice versa), I have no reason to disbelieve her version of events.

Thanks for doing an AMA. I read Lawrence Wright's amazing book "Going Clear" a few months ago--ironically much of it in Silver Lake, and out near Hemet. In it, he mentions rumors that the organization is on the verge of collapse. Do you have enough mgmt experience from your SeaOrg time to express any insight on this point?

Of the 6 years I was in the Sea Org, 4 of them were on the RPF. So, while I cannot comment directly on such things, I can say that there are A LOT of people I knew and worked with consistently that are now out of the Sea Org. Many of them were on the RPF... of the roughly 350 people I was on the RPF with over the years (people came and went) close to half are currently out of the Sea Org entirely... however many of those by all accounts still identify as Scientologists or are not open about their disaffection.

The turnover rate for Sea Org staff in general is quite high, but the main problem that I see for the CoS is generating revenue and new Scientologists. The economic factors that allowed Scientology to thrive for a time (a cash flush working class) are going away and if you milk the Celebs too much they might John Galt their way out of the church.

What do you know of Operation Snow White? I've heard it described as the single biggest compromise of US Intelligence Agencies in history. Any thing similar going on now?

I've read the same things you have... but I don't know of an organized attempt to infiltrate the government since then. That said, the internal story about Operation Snow White is VERY different than the official story.

In your opinion, are the higher ups in Scientology true believers, or is the whole thing just a business and they know all of the propaganda they feed the lower levels is BS?

True Believers from top to bottom.

Do you wear an eyepatch?

HA... yes. While I lost sight in my left eye, I refused to have it removed in the hopes of one day becoming a cyborg. I figured that the optic nerve would need to be intact and I didn't want any kind of removal or enucleation to jeopardize that... also at the time I thought I was immortal and that with auditing I could heal myself... but the odd remains of an eye pass for normal on most days but I am still very light sensitive, which can result in severe headaches.

So yes, on my bad days, I absolutely wear an eye-patch.

What's the best way to fight the church?

Unfortunately, the best bet is probably to do what they did to the IRS and bury them and Miscavage in litigation.

Displacing Miscavage will probably trigger a reformation period for the Church... but there is really no telling what kind of good that would do. Sure Marty Rathbun is great now, but like Hubbard and Miscavige, he's a true believer... how long before he (as an example... really anyone that may follow as figurehead) believes his own myth?

Is it all completely psychological in keeping you there? They don't actually physically detain people, do they? Because if they do, I'm going to join, and fuck people up if they try to, as detaining people is a federal offense called kidnapping.

I've read there is physical detention in many sources over the years.

Not completely psychological. I was physically restrained on a couple of occasions, had exits blocked and the like. They do try to keep it to a minimum... they also keep all your ID's, credit cards, and the like and keep you from having more than 20 bucks on you at any given time. So it already qualifies as Human Trafficking, just haven't had enough people to testify to make it stick when the FBI looked into it.

Were you encouraged to max out credit cards for church donations or class tuition?

I wasn't but my parents were. I was in the Sea Org by the time I was 18, so I was never really pressured to be a financial supporter of the CoS

Do Scientologists tend to be anti-vaccine? How connected do you feel Scientology is with the anti-vaccination movement?

Some might buy into it, but I don't know of any official CoS position on the matter.

Have you ever studied the occult links between Crowley and Hubbard or Scientology as a whole? If so, have you studied any of the O.T.O (Ordo Templi Orientis) and how much of their philosophy parallels Scientology?

Not really. I've heard about it in passing. I've never found what I've heard about it isn't really germane to my experiences... but I am coming from a pretty specific sub-set of experiences.

Second question unrelated to my first so separate post:

How has your experience with CoS affected your view of religion in general? Or do you separate CoS with other faiths?

I'm an agnostic atheist and don't really care what people think or believe as long as it doesn't contradict or seek to supplant falsifiable knowledge.

Fundamentalists of any stripe piss me off to no end and I am generally fond of Pagans, Heathens, Buddhists, Sikhs and reformist Jews. My Grandmother was a very WASPy Christian, and while I love her and her memory... there's some super conformist and creepy shit in that culture. When I was 12 or so, she tried to get me to spend a lot of time with a nice Christian girl my age that had already developed back-breaking tits. Blond hair, blue eyes, conventionally attractive... boring as shit... and in retrospect, fucking hilarious. Says a lot about Grandma.

I don't think I could ever be a part of an organized religion or have any real belief or faith.

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Not yet.

What do you do for a living now? It sounds like it would be difficult acclimating to the non-Scientology world after being brought up in it. Have you had "culture shock" at all?

I've had a while to get used to it. But I am gainfully employed doing skilled labor and I hold a variety of certifications relevant to my field. I probably experienced culture shock a bit differently than most, but its been an otherwise smooth, but long transition... but I think that has more to do with how I chose to approach it. In a lot of social situations I was very "deer in headlights" but as a true introvert, I sat back, observed and gradually found my place in things.

It still takes me a long time to adjust to new people and I'm not sure how much of that is conditioning and how much of that is me.

Okay, here's a real question: My Aunt got my Uncle to leave Sea Org with her because she hardly ever got to see her husband, and so many people were sleeping around with each other, she was afraid she'd lose him. This was in the 1970's, and they were on the boat with L. Ron Hubbard. Did you ever observe this kind of thing going on?

Since that time, Hubbard instituted certain "2-D rules" (second dynamic... it relates to sex, creativity and reproduction) that disallows sex out of marriage.

Then, since 1996, it has been a rule that you cannot have children in the Sea Org at all. So what happens most often is that people will get married just to get some sexy-times and then divorce later... and if they want out, they get pregnant and resist the mountain of coercion to have an abortion.

Many women have a hard time putting up with the abuse and coercion... and its an unfortunately common story.

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When I was flying under the radar. I was just telling them they had the wrong number... repeatedly and marking all the mail "Not at this address"

It takes a while and they are dicks about it, but after a few months everything should die down... Its like training a stupid dog, you have to be extra patient and consistent.

How extensive is the training that press officers get? I've heard they get drilled every day. They always seem to handle tough questions far better than politicians can.

That would be correct. The PR training is intense. They know their talking points cold and often by rote, in any given situation that they're walking into they've drilled many variants of a variety of questions and they always do their homework and try to figure out the line of questioning that is perused... and if possible get the questions before hand to drill those specifically.

How did your parents get into Scientology? Are they still members? How did you realize it is total shit?

It was the 70's and they were introduced by a mutual friend... who has long since been out and has apologized to me for his small part in me losing my eye on the RPF.

EMDR therapy is very much like the process of auditing, and can sometimes be disregarded as a viable therapy option because of its association with scientology, even though there have been very good results for PSTD patients who use EMDR. Do you think it is possible for there to be a disassociation between the two?

Maybe...I don't know enough about EMDR to make that assesment, but since it is outside of the purview of Scientology, it would be a good idea to have it studied and peer reviewed.

Much of Scientology's results rely on indoctrination and an expectation of certain realizations and results. I would hope that the same cannot be said for EMDR.

Is there such a thing as dating/courtship within the church? Maybe it's because you were in "prison" but it sounds like there's no real social time.

On the RPF... there is no such thing as dating or courtship of any kind. No sexy times with spouses while on the RPF regardless of their standing.

In the Sea Org, pre-marital sex is a big no-no and will get you sent to the RPF.

Just as a public Scientologist or someone going to a Scientology school, dating and such is mostly normal, if a bit uptight... and often awkward.

Some of the scientology stories seem almost Orwellian, was your experience like this. IDK if you've read 1984 it's a good read if you haven't.

Orwell is one of my favorite authors. I'm currently reading Homage to Catalonia. Ironically, I read 1984 and Animal Farm in High School... but only made the connections later.

What was it that got you put into the RPF? Looks like this one has been asked a few times already.

Do you still believe in the writings of LRH and the basic tenets of scientology, or have you abandoned it entirely? If you still believe, do you attend any of the independent scientology groups that have sprung up in recent years?

I am not a Scientologist in any manner nor will I ever be again under any circumstances.

Do you get paid while working for Scientology?

If so, who pays you?

How much are you paid?

Did you learn any practical skills during your private education?

What will you do now that you are 'disentangled'?

• While on the RPF I was provided room and board (meager food and a dorm with 30 other guys) and was paid $12.50 per week, with no bonuses.
• the Management org that houses the RPF, in this case, CLO WUS.
• in School? it was a fairly standard education... somewhat deficient in some areas when compared to national standards. I'm a quick reader so I think I've been able to successfully make up for any deficiencies. On the RPF I learned A LOT about skilled labor and construction work in general.
• see if they try to re-entangle me... otherwise tell 'em to fuck off.

How do you feel now about your state of mind and beliefs while you were inside the CoS and are you afraid you might be somehow tempted to go back? (sorry if I make it sound like a drug addiction, but I've never had any experience similar to this and it's the only way I can picture it)

This is actually an excellent point. For me, Auditing always produced these little moments of clarity, where I could sort of step back from the context of my life and examine its parts. There is a certain thrill and euphoria that comes with auditing, but these moments of clarity where everything seemed so clear and simple are really what I craved.

If there is one thing I miss, its that... but I know I have to pay forward a certain amount of delusion to get it... and I'm fresh out.

ever see a dead body?

A few times. Held my grandma's hand as she took her last breath.

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I don't know about very best... since its gonna be different for each person... but some life lessons in no particular order:

Don't trust the squares. These people are conformists and have a vested interest in turning you into a conformist as well, since the more there are the more it validates their existence. Although, some people are just drab an boring... that's OK too.

Related to the above, there's nothing wrong with you.

Safety First.

After spending 4 years in what amounts to a labor camp: derive as much happiness from your life as you can. This can be hard as hell when you have PTSD or are clinically depressed, but with the right people in your life, you can at least make a good go of it.

Watch reruns of Mr. Rogers... that shit is magical.