I'm Ellen Nordick, and I help people who are tired of helping everybody but themselves learn to start caring for themselves the way they care for others.

There's this song I really like, and it has this line "I care a bit too much about those who choose to stay out of touch"

And that's basically me. I feel like people just don't give a shit, while I really care about them.

Any way to at least lessen this kind of stuff?

Good morning, ghostief. I'm sorry that this has happened to you! It sounds like you have an open heart. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not! Sometimes we have to screen people a bit; not everybody deserves to have the same access to our time, energy, and attention. I know that sounds harsh and I don't mean it that way; we need to protect our hearts. Start noticing when you first start feeling like they don't care as much as you do. AND...if anyone tells you, "I'm no good for you," BELIEVE THEM!

I forgot who said it, but I was told once that ‘Not all friends are forever friends’. Some are people you enjoyed in proximity, due to work, school, etc, but fade away when life moves on. Trying to forcibly maintain these relationships is a stressor. A few will be in your life for a long time, but not all, and that is ok. Things will keep changing.

Yes, there's some poem about some are for a season....sometimes people grow apart. Sadly, some people just don't grow....

Not sarcastically: Who's going to do it if I'm not? How do you be okay with letting things work out on their own?

The question to ask yourself is, "is this mine to do?", meaning, are you taking responsibility for things that other people need to be responsible for? And, to be completely honest, sometimes we HAVE to take on things that other people should take care of. For example, if a husband gets drunk and can't go to work, his wife may call and make an excuse for him because if she doesn't, he'll lose his job and that would cause problems for the family. So sometimes people have to go along with a dysfunctional system just to get by...but it would be wise to try to find other options.

but it would be wise to try to find other options.

Often there isn't any other options Atleast that's what I found. I was a carer for a family member for ages and they were both very ill and somewhat self destructive decision makers. What made me keep doing things was my love of them and anxiety of them destroying themselves with bad decisions outweighed my respect for their autonomy. And the worst was that doctors often praised my decision making so I often just became like a parent. The family member I cared for passed away from covid few months back now

I am so sorry for your loss. I wish you peace and healing.

Nonprofit staff are notorious for feeling this way. Nonprofits are also notorious for mistreating their staff (underpayment, poor life/work balance, etc). How can nonprofit staff balance their own needs without feeling like they're doing a detriment to the mission or, in direct care roles, their clients?

That's a tough one for many of us, because we feel like we have to give and give and give, often to our own detriment. Sometimes we have to think about how much we're willing AND ABLE to give. We can't be all things to all people, as much as we'd like to. One of the things I had to learn early on as a counselor is to not work harder than my clients because that can actually cause harm. Sometimes people need to struggle a bit in order to grow. And the sad fact is, we can't always help everyone. That's a hard truth. We do the best we can do, and that's all we can do.

How do you handle self-care without guilt? I'll never be "done" with work, parenting, house keep up etc. So any time I spend just on me feels like I should be doing something else.

Additionally, Self-care time feels lonely. I like to create in my studio, but no one goes there with me.

What I really want is to share in something I like with people who love me, affirm me, and genuinely want to be involved in what I choose to do as a mental break/creative exploration. The way I do with my husband and kids and their LEGO, car shows, etc.

I want a me, for me.

Any advice?

I think of it is putting gas in the tank...the car just won't run on empty. It sounds like you've got a lot going on, and the fact is that for most of us, there are more things to do than there are hours to do them. Prioritizing is key. Obviously housework is important, but maybe it can be done differently. Are you the only one doing the chores? One thing that a lot of my clients find helpful is to have everyone spend 10 or 15 minutes doing a "quick pick up" every night. And maybe it won't be perfect, but maybe that's ok. I'm not sure what your artistic expression is...but it's great that you have one! I wonder if you can find other like-minded people to create with, and then share that with your family?

I identify with that description. It's just so much easier to find motivation knowing others are counting on me. Whereas I struggle to take basic care of myself (food and sleep are the big ones. I'm at work today on <2 hours of sleep.). I intellectually know what I need to do, but still can't seem to consistently get myself to follow through. Is this a common problem your patients deal with and what are some approaches you'd recommend?

Hi Bartleby116! Yes, this is a VERY common problem my clients deal with. I encourage people to know their "why". As in, why don't they take good care of themselves? Is it a belief that they aren't worth it? Is it a time management issue? Lack of resources? Understanding the obstacles is the first step to making adjustments. And sometimes we have to realize that if people are counting on us, showing up at less than our best doesn't serve them well, either, and could potentially be harmful. There's a popular saying right now..."you can't pour from an empty cup", so if you won't do it for you, do it for them. (said with much care)

"you can't pour from an empty cup"

I'm a big fan of "you can't set yourself on fire to keep others warm".

I like that one...and will use it!

This is where I am. But I don't know how to figure out the "why" so I a t like this towards myself. How do we figure out the why?

Hi Loreen. It takes some time. If you want to DIY, there are a lot of books on the topic. Melody Beattie is a good author. There are lots of blog posts, as well. If you wanted to find a counselor to work with, you could Google and to find a community mental health center near you. Openpath.com has a list of counselors who work with a sliding scale. Psychologytoday.com lets you look in cities or counties, and you can filter by gender, issue, type of insurance, and more. Hope this helps.

Personally, I try to remember that I can better help others when I'm well rested and fed myself.

Absolutely! Don't ask me anything requiring any deep thought after 8 pm, and don't even THINK about asking me anything if I'm hungry. And it's also generally better for everyone if I've had my coffee first!

Wait this isn't my account, why are you speaking my mind

...one of my superpowers, lol. JK. I think a lot of us share the same feelings. We just don't talk about them in polite company....so we stay stuck.

Good morning, FurryFeets! First, I want you to know that you're not alone. A lot of us fall into this trap! I always suggest being really honest with yourself, first and foremost. Many times we see red flags in a relationship but we don't want to see them, so we ignore them. Check in with yourself and take the time to really think about what's happening. It can take some time to figure this out. I recommend journaling, but some people find that going for a walk helps them think; others use meditation...there are lots of different ways. Then think about what you WANT to happen in your relationship. Once you know that, then you can start to think about how to have a productive discussion with your loved one.

But who helps you Ellen??

I am blessed with good friends and also do not hesitate to get counseling when I need it! I also read a lot. I love learning better ways to communicate and live well. Thanks for asking!

Encouraging words for the sandwich generation?

The sandwich generation is a relatively new phenomenon. And it's tough! I would recommend trying to find as many resources as you can. Most cities/towns have a community mental health center and they may be able to help you find resources to help aging parents. I used to be a legal secretary and found that consulting with an eldercare attorney was very helpful. Also care.com, but you have to screen VERY carefully. There are also support groups for caregivers. Encourage your kids to be as independent as they can.
Even little ones can help with housework, even if it is more work for you in the beginning. And even though it's difficult, if caring for your family is in alignment with your values, that makes it much easier to deal with the challenges. And realize that it won't always be this way....and may you find find peace knowing that you were there for them.

The sandwich generation is a relatively new phenomenon. And it's tough! I would recommend trying to find as many resources as you can. Most cities/towns have a community mental health center and they may be able to help you find resources to help aging parents. I used to be a legal secretary and found that consulting with an eldercare attorney was very helpful. Also

care.com

, but you have to screen VERY carefully. There are also support groups for caregivers. Encourage your kids to be as independent as they can.

Even little ones can help with housework, even if it is more work for you in the beginning. And even though it's difficult, if caring for your family is in alignment with your values, that makes it much easier to deal with the challenges. And realize that it won't always be this way....and may you find find peace knowing that you were there for them.

The sandwich generation is a relatively new phenomenon. And it's tough! I would recommend trying to find as many resources as you can. Most cities/towns have a community mental health center and they may be able to help you find resources to help aging parents. I used to be a legal secretary and found that consulting with an eldercare attorney was very helpful. Also

care.com

, but you have to screen VERY carefully. There are also support groups for caregivers. Encourage your kids to be as independent as they can.

Even little ones can help with housework, even if it is more work for you in the beginning. And even though it's difficult, if caring for your family is in alignment with your values, that makes it much easier to deal with the challenges. And realize that it won't always be this way....and may you find find peace knowing that you were there for them.

What do you think is the motivation(s) behind acting completely selfless in everyday life?

That’s a great question! I think there are several motivations for being selfless; I don’t know if I’ll cover all of them here, so I’ll offer 3 of the most common ones I see. For example, many of us grew up in less than optimal situations and were encouraged to be selfless, and were even rewarded for it, so we developed a pattern of behavior. Others focus on helping others so we don’t have to deal with our own stuff. Still others use “helping” as a way to control people. This doesn’t make someone a bad person; sometimes people aren’t even aware of their motives on a conscious level.

I noticed it's not uncommon for parents to want to be semi-infantilized and taken care of by their children physically and emotionally like they owe it to them all their life. There's a too common belief that children are indebted to their parents as if they had any consent in the matter.

Yes, there's a term called "parentification" used to describe situations where the child becomes the parent. This usually happens when the child is asked to do things the parent should do. And then there's good old parental guilt, too, sometimes.

I am definitely the type to help others to avoid my own issues. What are some thoughts or resources I may be able to focus on to reduce this behavior?

To be fair, it has diminished in recent years; after spending some years taking care of a stroke-surviving partner and a death-bed marriage, I made it a point to focus on myself above all others for a while. But as time has moved forward, as I've moved forward through the grief and healed, some of those old patterns have been poking up again.

It has actually been a topic of conversation between myself and a recent partner; we both have the same tendency for the same basic cause, helping others helps us avoid our own problems (she's recovering from an abusive marriage, and this had been one of her coping mechanisms while in it).

Melody Beattie has written several good books on the subject. John Bradshaw's "Healing the Shame that Binds You" is also very good.

coda.org has meetings, f2f as well as phone and online meetings. There's also Al-Anon. If you're first couple of meetings don't click, don't give up...just try another one.

Counseling also may be helpful. If you have health insurance, you can go to your insurance carrier's website. You can also go to Pyschologytoday.com and filter by insurance, area, issues, etc. And most cities/towns have community mental health agencies to help people who don't have insurance.

Hope this helps.

thanks for answering! that makes a lot of sense.

as a follow up if you have the time; what do you think are the barriers in someone moving towards a more self-centric world view?

Some common barriers are reluctance to be considered selfish, fear of abandonments, and lack of skills. Books are a great resource, as is the internet.

Others focus on helping others so we don’t have to deal with our own stuff.

This is mine, and I'm not sure how to approach dealing with it. I have a constant feeling of guilt when working on things for myself, as I've committed my time to others and I have a hard time saying no. I have a plethora of useful skills, and I often feel obligated to help the people I love because I'm their best option. How do I say no to someone who's desperate when I'm able to help, albeit at the cost of my own progress? All the time I feel like I'm drowning in the mountain of tasks and yet I'll always be the one to cover for someone if they're short rent or need some help with their car.

Identifying resources they can use is helping, so you don't have to do all the work for them. There are support groups for people who want to learn boundaries. Al-Anon is one, coda.org is another. There are online meetings. The important thing is to find a solution-oriented group.

I know that venting is part of the process..however, some people get stuck in the complaining and never get to the solution part.

If one meeting doesn't work for you, don't hesitate to try another.

Counseling might be helpful to you. When we develop patterns/habits they can be hard to break...but it is doable. Having some support makes it easier.

Hi Ellen. I definitely fell into this trap with my first marriage... hence, first marriage. What advice do you have for someone to avoid falling into this trap again when they know they're prone to it?

Good morning, FurryFeets! First, I want you to know that you're not alone. A lot of us fall into this trap! I always suggest being really honest with yourself, first and foremost. Many times we see red flags in a relationship but we don't want to see them, so we ignore them. Check in with yourself and take the time to really think about what's happening. It can take some time to figure this out. I recommend journaling, but some people find that going for a walk helps them think; others use meditation...there are lots of different ways. Then think about what you WANT to happen in your relationship. Once you know that, then you can start to think about how to have a productive discussion with your loved one.

How can I move ahead on my own projects and goals when nobody else cares about that? OK I realize the obvious answer is to adult up and just do those things. Unfortunately, I am a social person and it’s been really hard for me too do these things without any kind of social support. Do you recommend hiring a life coach? Trying to find specific people for the different goals? Are there apps or online groups that can at least fake it with some kind of gamification?

I’m at the point where I am tired of failing, and I’m tired of being embarrassed about the fact that I can’t do this stuff in a social vacuum. I’m too old for school to supply the structure and don’t know where to look.

Hi! Are there other people that are working on similar projects? Finding some like-minded people to connect with might be really helpful for you. There are different FB groups that offer "body-doubling" for people that need social help in getting tasks done (even if it's not the same kind of task). These groups offer accountability and a lot of people report that it gives them a sense of accountability.

Do you have any advice for someone whose partner struggles with this? We have a great relationship, I'm just always trying to encourage them to love and care for themselves the way they do for me and everyone else in their life.

How nice that you want to help! Sometimes we learn just by observing those around us. If your partner sees you practicing self-care, that can help plant some seeds. A lot of people start or end their day with a daily reading. A book of daily reflections might be a nice gift. Maybe you could do some self-care activities together – something that feeds your souls. Some examples would be going to a museum, going for a walk, exercising, taking a class…

I feel stupid asking this, but how does one go about stopping being selfless or at least less selfless ?

I’ve never cared about ‘me’ - for as long as I can remember (I’m 41 now). I have a few failed relationships and am currently single and I wonder if not caring about myself is the reason or some of it. Making other people happy used to make me happy, but not so much any more - I still do it, but I get no gratification from it now.

I’m not even sure this makes sense tbh.

It makes sense! Paying attention to how you're feeling is how you start. A lot of us dismiss our internal cues, if we feel angry, resentful, tired, etc. Sometimes we pick up habits that serve us well for awhile but then we hang onto them long after they are useful. Noticing that this habit is no longer giving you any gratification is the first step. Now try to start thinking about what would make YOU happy.

I have a mother who did this to a tee. She's a hairdresser in northern Jersey ,mother of three (two her own, one basically adopted), and caretaker to any friends and family who needs it I've seen her with pneumonia work a 40-hour work week in 3 days with no complaint. Worried she may be depressed and throwing herself into her work and family instead of helping herself. Any advice on how to talk to her about this?

I'd pretty much say it like that. Lead with how much she means to you, state what your concerns are, provide some resources for her. She can find a counselor at psychologytoday.com; you can filter by geographic area, issues, insurance, etc. If money is an issue, almost every town/county has a community mental health agency. There's also openpath.com for people that need a sliding scale. Hope this helps.

In your opinion why is it that we hear this intimation often, this assumption that people who are stressed or mistreated by people spend so much energy helping others that they neglect themselves? Yet we have so much selfishness in the world, and in our daily lives we see more often people who are selfish and do not care about others. Why is this a common diagnoses?

You bring up a very good point; not every act of kindness is the result of being codependent. We sure don't want to pathologize generosity of spirit, otherwise what kind of a world would we live in? Codependency is more about compulsive caretaking, taking on responsibilities that belong to others, preventing others from experiencing the consequences of their own actions (or inactions). It's when people fail to take their own needs into consideration, or give because they are afraid that not giving would result in a loss of love.

So how do you change your mindset to stop being so empathetic and start being more selfish? It seems like something that can be ingrained in you since childhood. What insights do you have beyond just therapy?

Love your name! I think the language we use is important, so I would say "start being more selfish", because that has a negative connotation. Protecting your time and energy, honoring your limitations, being mindful of how you feel...sounds better and that might make it easier. Paying attention to how you feel is a good start. Think of it as having empathy for yourself! If you find yourself always feeling annoyed with that one friend who is always 30 minutes late...notice that, and next time you're making plans, you could say something like, "I'll meet you at 9 but I'm pressed for time...if you're not there by 9:15 I'm going to (fill in the blank)...go ahead and order...assume you're not able to make it...etc."

I love this! It doesn't have to be one or the other. Have empathy for yourself and then towards others.

I have found way more difficult to do the exercise of finding out where all my struggles come from, than to find them in others. I think that's the main reason people care more about others than themselves, it just easier. Each time I think about it I get to the same conclusion. Do you think that's the reason? We always look for the easiest path? Or is there other reason.

I think if we look at our own stuff, then we'd have to actually deal with it. And sometimes we lack the skill or confidence to deal with it, so then we practice denial. Usually at some point, though, denial doesn't work anymore and then it can become a crisis.

How can you get the skills and confidence to look into your own emotions?

Journaling can help. Some people write it out and then shred it, bury it, burn it so no one else can read it. There are lots of self-help groups, coda.org and Al-anon, but sometimes it can take some trial and error before you find the right group. Melody Beattie has written several good books. Healing the Shame that binds you by John Bradshaw is another good one. And counseling can be helpful; it's nice to have someone in your corner, who can offer you support and guidance. You can find counselors on Psychologytoday.com, openpath.com, or go through your insurance company. Hope this helps.

Hi Ellen. Thank you for being here! As someone who has taken on a lot of responsibility for others at a young age, the experience has shaped me in good and bad ways. Over the years I've noticed patterns of habitual self sacrifice in situations that don't deserve it in hindsight. But it's difficult to gauge whether what I'm experiencing is normal or self destructive. When do you think selflessness reaches a point where it is serious or harmful enough to warrant intervention? What are some flags to look for in oneself? What are some first steps one could take towards making a change for the better?

Hi GoFidoGo! Defining terms is very helpful. For example, "friend". What does it mean to be a good friend? Does it mean letting someone borrow money time and again even though they never pay it back? Does it mean listening to them endlessly complain about their job even though they do nothing to improve their situation? Or is it two people that have the same values, or the same hobbies, who spend time together that is enriching BOTH people? Some red flags would be wanting to avoid them or feeling resentful. The first step I think is always being honest with yourself. And then think about what works and what doesn't. I'm a visual person so I like to journal and have even used "T" charts with pros on one side and cons on the other. Then (this part takes the longest) think about how to address the problems. For example, next time your friend wants to borrow money you can say, "I'm sorry, I'm saving for (fill in the blank)" or "I'm still waiting for you to pay me back for ..." or if you're in a restaurant, tell the waitstaff "Separate checks, please!".

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You can go to my website at lnncounselingandconsulting.com and schedule a free 15 minute consultation so we can see if I'm the best person to help you.

Hi Ellen, so what is your understanding or theory on why certain people are like that?

I've heard the same ol' saying that some people are like this only because they don't want to be alone or that they have no boundaries but I want to know what is your take on it?

Thanks for doing this AMA.

It's my pleasure to do this AMA, and thank you for being a part of it! I think a lot of it comes from our childhood. We learn to not tell the truth/not be ourselves in order to keep the peace or keep people from abandoning us. When we're kids we are dependent on our caregivers, so we do what we have to do to keep them happy. Also, we are not taught how to respectfully disagree, so a lot of times we go along with things so as not to be disagreeable. The good news is that you can learn the skills to respectfully set boundaries and communicate your needs. It takes some time and it's uncomfortable at first, but it can be done...and is worth it!

I noticed that a lot of people who have this problem also have difficulties expressing their emotions (especially the bad ones) for fear if losing those "relationships" I put that in quotes because I don't think people who can't express their own emotions can have meaningful relationships.

How to help people to love themselves and feel confident? I don't think you can care and love others if you don't do that first with yourself.

My mother always told me that you have to love yourself before you can love someone else. I think that you CAN love and care for others even if you don't love yourself; I just think that the relationship isn't as intimate as it could be if both partners don't show up as their real selves. I think the relationships can be meaningful, but they may not be healthy!

I uhh, could use this. But it's only for women?

Good morning...it is not limited to women. Any human can have issues with finding the balance for caring for others AND taking care of ourselves.

Do you have some favorite books, websites, podcasts, blogs on this topic?

Melody Beattie has written several good books on the subject. One of my fave books. Pia Melody is also a good author.

I don't have any experience with podcasts or blogs but "The Codependent Perfectionist" podcast looks interesting! And https://www.livewellwithsharonmartin.com/mental-health-blog/ looks like it has some good articles.

I also don't limit my search to just this topic. I also look for books on communication as well. Crucial Conversations: Tools for talking when stakes are high (Patterson, Grenny, McMillan and Switzler) is a good one.

Is there an official name for this title? Also, what do you recommend for people who are too eager to be "people-pleasers"?

Hi! The title is, "I'm Ellen Nordick, and I help people who are tired of helping everybody but themselves learn to start caring for themselves the way they care for others." A bit wordy, but I'm new to all this!

We have to remember that WE are people, too. So we can please ourselves! We often worry a lot about what other people think about us. And sometimes, that's important. We want our significant others, friends, boss, family members to think well of us. But the rest of the people.. Does what they think REALLY matter? Do they pay your bills? Do they know your situation? AND if they're spending a lot of time thinking about you, shame on them! They should be focusing on their own lives!

Thanks for answering. I think there might have been a misunderstanding by what I meant by title. I mean, suppose there's someone who wants to get help for this sort of issue, who specifically do they seek? Like if they go to a therapist, is there a special designation for this or is there no way to tell if one is knowledgeable/has worked in/specializes in this?

Also, I'm pretty sure you know and have heard this already but "what do you care what other people think" is not something that someone can easily accept. it's like telling a depressed person to smile.

Hi again. There are lots of different names people use to describe this pattern of behavior. Some call it codependency, some talk about setting boundaries, others talk about healthy relationships. A lot of it falls under the blanket term "self-care". A lot of therapists offer a free consultation so you can get some idea if he/she is the best person to help you.

I also did not mean to come across as flippant; I understand that it takes time to change the way we think about things (such as being overly concerned about what other people think) and I apologize if I offended you. It was not my intention. I was trying to make the point that it is impossible to please everyone, so it may be helpful to focus on the people most important to us. I hope that helps.

How do you suggest telling people in your life that you're taking a step back? Especially professionally, because I have a few volunteer organizations I work with that I'd like to find a way to reduce my commitment to.

Logically, I know I should just say that I'm taking more time for myself but then I struggle with the feeling that I'm not living up to expectations. I have this image in my head of myself being super competent and I feel like I'm not meeting my own standards when I get stressed out by my responsibilities and refuse work or don't volunteer.

Ever watch the movie, The King's Speech? A commoner invites the queen to lunch, and she refuses the invitation in the most beautiful way! She begins by saying Thank you so much, I would love to, but I have a prior engagement. You might say something like, "I have so appreciated the opportunity to serve with you and help you (whatever the mission is)...and now I am finding that other obligations make it impossible for me to give the time/attention this deserves" or something along those lines.

Just know that everything we say "yes" to means we have to say "no" to something else!

...and maybe rethink your standards just a bit...you are entitled to rest and relax and enjoy yourself!

Is there some kind of online quiz to know where we stand?

Thanks for the question. This one looks good:

https://www.mhanational.org/co-dependency

Do you have any resources or book recommendations for people to overcome this issue?

Melody Beattie has written some good books, I really enjoy this one: Language of Letting Go Also https://www.mhanational.org/co-dependency has some good information.

So, at the end of the day, who helps Ellen Nordick?

God, family, and friends. And you don't have to limit yourself to those I know not everyone has the same beliefs...you do you!!!..therapy is helpful (I've had a lot, myself, and found it immensely helpful!)...support groups...12 step programs...church/synagogue/spiritual resources....books...

thank you. CAN I ASK YOU HOW?

We start by being honest with ourselves about the way we feel. And make room for the discomfort that can cause. For example, if you notice that you're feeling angry because a friend showed up late for the 100th time, acknowledge it (even if only to yourself, for now). A lot of times we've been taught to feel bad for feeling frustrated/angry, etc. because it's "not nice", "not ladylike", "not Christian," or "you're not a team player". Sometimes we got in the habit of pretending everything is "fine" because that's what we needed to do to keep the relationship intact....to the point where we're angry/upset/whatever and we don't even know why. In that case, journaling can help you start making the connection b/w events and your feelings.

I mentioned the discomfort...and even though it's not pleasant, it can serve as motivation to learn a different way of doing things.

There are lots of books about codependency. Melody Beattie is a good author...and Amazon has a lot of books on the topic.

There are self-help groups that are free, such as Al-Anon and Coda, and they have online meetings, phone meetings, and F2F meetings.

I also encourage people to think about learning communication skills. I enjoy Dan O'Connor on Youtube: Communication Skills

And counseling is another option. If you have insurance, you can go to your insurance carrier's website, or go to Psychologytoday.com where you can filter by location, issue, etc. Openpath helps people who need a sliding scale, and most areas have community mental health centers for people who don't have the resources to pay for counseling.

Hope this helps!