IAMA Weights and Measures Inspector

Why can’t I get a proper pint of beer?

So many pubs offer a “pint” that’s actually anywhere between 12 and 18 ounces.

Hah. That's also the argument for a UK pint to a US pint. I also love the restaurants that sell a "short" and "tall" beer. I'm not paying an extra $2 for the same amount of beer just to put it into a taller glass. Just give me a proper pint.

A coworker did actually respond to a W&M complaint at a bar where they offered a pint in a 12 oz. glass. No. A US pint is 16 oz. They had to get new glasses.

Speaking of fun consumer complaints. I had another coworker who had to follow up on a woman who said her 4.5 qt crock pot she just bought didn't actually hold 4.5 qt. He had to buy one and test it.

Did it actually hold 4.5 qt?

He's still testing. They don't fuck around in Weights and Measures.

The answer is much less pleasant.. I forgot what he told me

Not sure if this is in your realm of knowledge, but it's a curiosity I've never been able to scratch:

Those weigh stations on expressways. Usually they're dead empty, other times there's a line of trucks half a mile long.

First, what determines whether those stations need to be open, and/or what determines if trucks need to stop or not?

Second, do the trucks pull up with a sheet of paper that says "I'm carrying X lbs" and basically get it matched against a scale in the road?

Not my realm of knowledge, no, but I do understand a little about that.

It really comes down to opening them at random times... sort of like when I have a random inspection at a store. The state patrol isn't able to man a weigh station 365 days a year, but if it could be open at any time it still serves the same purpose. Any truck driving that route needs to know they are compliant for the chance it could be open.

What they do test is that the weight doesn't exceed a certain weight per axle. It doesn't matter how much they are carrying.

How often do you come across cheaters for gas pumps and grocery scales?

I'm routinely told by people over a certain age to never go to "no name" gas stations because they cheat the pumps, and you pay for 10 gallons but you're really getting 9 1/2, or whatever. (Or that the octane is lower than listed because the gas is somehow "watered down", or it's gas that is very old and losing its potency, or some other scam.) Any of that true?

I personally have very rarely run into anyone intentionally trying to cheat the system. Most inspection failures are just negligence and bad practices/lazy employees.

One thing to point out, is every state has their own W&M program, though they are primarily based from the same system of rules. There is no Federal W&M agency, but the handbooks we all base our state programs off of is from the National Conference of Weights and Measures (NCWM). I say this because my state is known as a consumer protection forward state. Some other agencies are... lacking?

I would never find a station in my state that routinely shorts customers. You fail an inspection, you get it fixed. If they don't, we shut the station down.

Also, it is next to impossible for stations today to intentionally doctor their pump meters as they are all electronic and need to be adjusted by a technician and a computer. The old mechanical meters could be messed with by changing gears, but many gas station owners today wouldn't even know how to open their pumps. The biggest thing you should be worried about in those "no name" stations is water in their tanks, because again that just comes down to negligence.

Gas stations typically test for water on delivery of fuel. There is a paste that changes color if there is water in the fuel that is rubbed on the dipstick they drop into the tank to measure fuel level. Or that's how they used to do it when I was a kid working at a gas station in Canada. Both the employee of the gas station and the delivery driver sign off on it. The fuel company does not want to be blamed for selling watered down fuel and the station doesn't want to buy watered down fuel so it's a reasonable check/balance system.

Yep. An example of how things 'should' work in a perfect world.

Get a lazy driver and a gas station owner who disables his tank monitor because it keeps beeping and that's how you get water in your tanks and seepage into the ground. One real world example.

Oh, makes sense that they'd have digital monitors now, dropping a huge ruler in the tank wasn't the best system.

They still use the tank sticks. It is mostly to physically verify that the automatic monitor is correct. Stores will (should) also be checking the physical stick measurement with their ATG inventory printout. Like you said, checks and balances.

It is that redundancy that is supposed to keep the consumer protected. Scale/meter installers are licensed and certified, often in the same classes as the inspectors (leads to some good discussions during break). A W&M inspector is going to verify a new meter/scale was calibrated correctly. I found one grocery store that had all their front end registers/scales replaced were miscalibrated by the installation technician because their field weights were incorrect. Anything that involves humans also involves human error. Shit happens.

I saw a post yesterday on a mechanic sub about a car brought in (3rd that day, and apparently several dozen to other shops around town over the last few days) that wouldn't start after pumping at a random non chain station. The liquid taken from the fuel tank was less than 10% gas and over 90% water.

Apparently every car that pumped there was having to get towed away and somehow people kept pumping and the station kept selling.

Dunno how the story ends though. No idea how they managed to keep operating like that for at least several days so far.

That's actually the post that brought me here. In my state that station would have had an inspector there before the end of the day and all their pumps locked.

Fuel quality complaints have a mandatory 24-hour response.

How accurate does a gas pump need to be?

We measure gas pumps in cubic inches. The tolerance is +/- 6 cubic inches in a 5 gallon test sample, which equates to a little over a tablespoon per gallon. They are one of the most accurate pieces of equipment out there (1/3 of a percent error).

Do you count the jiggle at the end?

Yes, actually. Testing procedures get as accurate as accounting for the coefficient of expansion of the stainless steel test prover based on the current temperature, the amount of seconds to rest between tests, and touching off the last drip.

That would mean that a tablespoon is about a cubic inch.

And, looking it up, it is. I wouldn't think a tablespoon would be that big.

Volume is funny that way. I have a 50 gallon pancake test prover (looks like a flat pancake air compressor) for testing motor oil. It is about the size of a round coffee table and you'd never think it fits 50 gallons.

I’d love to see that! How does it test oil?

Testing the oil meters, so volume just like gas pumps... only larger.

Here is testing home heating oil / diesel from vehicle truck meters (VTMs):

https://imgur.com/a/uxcENQz

I have to imagine there is a group of non-Americans reading this comment whose heads are exploding with the units.

I agree. Cubic inches is the most ridiculous unit and I always have to talk myself in circles when someone starts asking questions when I'm working.

I'm assuming you're using the can method then?

Some states used to be +/- 2 percent, not sure if they still are.

Yep, good ol' seraphin test provers.

What's some aspect of your work that no outsider ever thinks about?

One thing for me at least is just the amount of random things W&M is involved with and has authority over. I started this job after working in retail management for many years (gas stations), so I was familiar with that aspect. The first year as I was training there were many days I thought to myself, "huh, I never knew we checked that."

Feed mills, concrete batch plants, pharmacy drug scales, farm market stands, carpet meters, fishing line meters, licensing door to door solicitors and firewood vendors.. is that bag of animal bedding really 5 cubic feet?

I used to have to calibrate scales at grocery stores with a weight set, but I notice the weight set I was given had an expiration date. Is that normal for weights to "go bad" and not be accurate?

Dropping, chipping, and daily use will eventually change the mass. It probably won't change that much, but the certification proves that it is still correct. That's why most test standards now are stainless steel and not brass. Mine do have to get adjusted slightly every year due to wear.

Does this make you a government weight watcher?

I'm totally using that one today!

I worked a scale job when I got out of the military, and called myself a professional weight lifter. I was only about 150lbs.

"I pick things up and put them down."

Did you know the definition of the kilogram changed and is disseminated from the kibble balance now that plancs constant has been defined?

Yeah, that can give you a headache if you really start digging into it. The history of weights and measures is one big test in who is most 'technically correct'.

The argument between London and Paris when determining the standard length of a meter had to do with the proper latitude when measuring the swing of a pendulum, as its different based on where in the world you test it.

Treaty of the meter. I passed the weights and measures test, but never purchased a pound kit. I do rf microwave instruments now Edit: and also call the state if I see a legal for trade scale they don't know about

Thanks! That really is appreciated. Part of my job is to survey and check out new businesses. I'm often blown away at how many people start a business without looking into proper statutes and regulations for their business.

I had a woman start a bulk candy shop and was selling by filling a pint mason jar and charging per pound. "The jar is 16 oz., that's a pound," she told me.

Let’s pretend I’m stupid.

Ok, I’m stupid, why is what she did a problem?

A 16 oz. mason jar is 16 fluid ounces, a volumetric measure. She was selling candy at "$5/lb" which she figured as 16 ounces.. measured in fluid ounces from the mason jar.

IE.. not even close.

Do you know if ahe changed the amount sold to make it actually "$5/lb" or just changed her sigage to be "$5/jar"?

I made her get a scale and sell by the actual pound. Candy can't be sold by volume.

To make things even more complicated, individually wrapped candy needs to be sold with a variable tare to account for the packaging. A 3# bag of saltwater taffy is actually 2.88 lbs of taffy. It makes a big difference.

That's another error I often find and the businesses say "I didn't even think about that."

What's heavier, a pound of gold or a pound of feathers?

What's heavier, a mason jar full of gold or a mason jar full of cotton candy?

What weights less, a gallon of milk or a gallon of butane.

The butane weighs less. It's a lighter fluid.

How does one get this job? I worked for UPS and I always thought it looked like fun.

Unless you fell into metrology courses in college, it's really just common sense and understanding of math and science, then being able to interpret technical documents and legal statutes. You learn on the job.

I came from the retail industry. I used to train other gas station managers how to maintain their equipment and pass inspections. My state inspector just happened to be working with me one day during an inspection and told me there was an opening and I should apply.

Other inspectors have come from all over. Some from the petroleum field, others from engineering firms. It's one of those jobs that has very few openings and the ones that get in will be there for 40 years until they retire. I'd say check out your local government job bank and give it a shot.

What's the most obscure unit of measuring that you deal with on a regular basis?

Some of the units used for precious metals and apothecary are odd, but not generally in common use. DWT - pennyweight, Troy ounces, scruples or grains. Most of those just use metric now.

That, and the cubic inch.

Laughs in european. Especially the cubic inches tolerance per gallon or whatever it was mentioned higher.

By the way, 231 in³ in 1 gal. Because of course, how sensible :D

In my nearly 40 years on this planet as an American, never have I needed to know how many cubic inches are in a gallon. It's an irrelevant conversion.

It is really. When I'm talking to businesses I always have to convert it to "real" units so the owner understands. "Your meter is over-dispensing 5 cu. in. per gallon," is a lot more confusing than "at $4 per gallon, you're giving away $0.25 per gallon."

Do you have anything to do with rope, chain, wire, etc. at hardware stores? A lot of times they have big spools of those types of thing and sell them by the foot. Do you simply confirm that the ruler on the floor is correct, and then basically leave it between the store and customer when they cut to length? And how about fabric by the yard? Same basic deal?

Yeah, that's one of the simpler inspections. Yes, we check the yard sticks at Joann fabrics. We check both the measures and the meters for rope and wire. I can only make sure they are using the proper measures when I come in. I know many will use the 4' length of shelving with sharpie marks or count the number of floor tiles. While that's NOT CORRECT, I can really only make sure they have the proper measures there when I inspect.

How big are the weights?

How heavy are the measures?

As big and heavy as they need to be.

My standard weight kit is 30 pounds. I have 500 lbs in the back of my truck in various 25 lb and 50 lb weights. They go as big as 500 lbs used for testing truck scales (5000 lbs total).

I've dealt with a lot of qc/qa involved industries holding incredibly tight tolerances down to .00005. I've used various methods of calibration, certification, and so on. A brief example is indepently certified metal references.

What do you calibrate against?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking about traceability? My field standards are certified by our state lab annually, which in place is certified by the international standard. So, two steps from Kevin Bacon.

I'll try to convey better. We use standards, which need certification at whatever intervals. We send them off to people like you. All the way down the line (state lab for you). Who maintains The Standard?

I'm assuming even the international standards need certification. Does it end in a humans hands? Do the keepers of the standards check against one another or something, in the end?

The guys at the state lab that do the certification would be better at a technical answer, but I'll point you to NIST HB 105 for field standards. Field standards are certified "Class F" and only need to be within a tolerance of 1/3% of the tolerance of the device being tested to account for uncertainty principal. I'd have to check my last certification report to see what tolerance they used.

My brother works in a food lab that measures down to those tight tolerances. I know my field standards wouldn't come anywhere close to what they need for calibration.

Edit: quote from HB105 "Field standards used for legal metrology shall be traceable to national standards by calibration in a laboratory recognized by NIST Office of Weights and Measures or accredited to ISO/IEC 17025 to calibrate in that parameter, range, and scope as specified by local regulations. Laboratories performing calibrations to establish traceability must comply with the calibration requirements of the applicable ASTM or OIML documentary standard. These requirements include, but are not limited to, laboratory environment, laboratory equipment, calibration method, process uncertainty, and weight design. "

Video about a facility that tests the tester's testers.

Pretty interesting.

I just watched that and sent it to my coworkers!

how much does a weights and measures inspector make salary wise in your area?

I think the current salary for my state is between 45k and 65k. Figure in the cush state benefits, though.

What do you do with the gasoline when you're done?

Goes back into the underground tanks. I hate above ground tanks and wish they would disappear. I have a couple of those in my territory and I either have to climb a ladder to dump it back in or carry along my portable pump.

How much do you weigh?

About 50 henweighs

Hopefully someone in your department specializes in these: how exactly is an alcohol breath analyzer calibrated/verified? And what about a police speed radar? I am a fellow metrologist but I can't really imagine the procedure for these.

That's a really good point. I'm not sure on these either. I'm sure there is an agency or company that specializes in certifying those.

I can only say we certify the drug scales the police use and the DOT scales.

Have you seen the "Smarter Every Day" video on YouTube where Destin interviews his Dad, who is a measurement expert, working on the James Webb telescope?

I don't have anywhere to go with that question, I just found it absolutely fascinating that such incredible techniques have been developed to measure such tiny differences while I'm here struggling with a tape measure.

Is there one measurement technique or device that you find especially neat, brilliant, or counter-intuitive for how it works?

I'll check that out! I still love testing the old torsion balance scales drug stores used to use, still accurate within a milligram. I enjoy the brilliance in engineering in older mechanical scales.

How do you feel about metric?

I also like metric. Any precision scales I test for pharmacies and dispensaries use metric. I have both test kits.

How accurate are the food scales I’m getting on Amazon? I’m suspecting not very. Is there any way I can calibrate them at home, or are there things to look for when buying one?

And thank you!

I'd say you have a 50/50 chance of getting a crap scale online. I have had to reject farm market scales for being counterfeit models from China. Yes, they exist.

Two things you can look for are accuracy class and NTEP certification. These aren't necessary for just a plain kitchen scale, but are required for Legal for Trade use. A normal grocery scale is a Class III scale with a NTEP certificate of conformity. You can check on the NCWM CC database search to verify a scale is actually certified instead of a counterfeit.

All that aside, it will add 10x the cost (my brother, an engineer, says NIST is a racket to overcharge for a certificate - two ways of looking at it). If you are just using it to portion meals in a home kitchen, anything is close enough. I've tested my cheap kitchen scale with my calibration weights and it's just fine.

You can search for certified test weights if you really want to check it out, but they aren't cheap. O'haus is a very reputable company.

Aren't measurements done in Metric units but then converted to Imperial units?

I'm surprised by the many references to gallons, cubic inches and other Freedom units.

Yes, it's all based off metric because that's the international standard. It has been proposed before to switch to metric, but that's a long battle of trying to convince everyone to change.

Do you prefer working with metric or US Customary units? Also, would you support the NIST proposal from a decade ago to allow metric only labeling on non alcoholic products?

I don't prefer one over the other. The hardest thing with any proposal like that is considering the cost of changing. I test enough international products that are only labeled with metric net weight. I don't see a problem. Is your average consumer going to be able to look at two bags of navy beans, one labeled 16 oz. and the other labeled 500g and be able to price compare on what's a better deal?

Regarding the latter, having the beans dual labeled allow people to price compare on their own right--but since most things worldwide are metric only, having the metric measurements are key to include I would say. Regarding the cost of changing, I would say while it is substantial, it pays for itself over time, and there is the fact that every other country has changed over, including not so long ago when things were nearly as complex as they are today.

In the US, food products are required to have both systems. Its when you start looking at non-food items that it gets wishy-washy. Allowing metric-only labeling would be less informative than what we have now.

I've run across gas pumps where the meter starts running before the gas actually starts pumping. A big jump at the beginning. Is there something going on?

Very common question. The hose will hold about 1/4 gallon, so if the attendant changes the handle and doesn't 'prime' the hose, or the previous customer holds the handle open after shutting off the pump to drain the hose, they are cheating you. You're basically paying for the gas to fill the hose back up.

Gas pumps are "wet" systems where there will always be fuel in the hose. Bonus answer, if you are filling a 1gal gas can for your mower and want non-ethanol and the previous customer pumped e10, you are getting a quarter of your can filled with e10 fuel unless they have independent hoses for each grade.

Is 'Dead-on Balls Accurate' an industry term you guys use?

Haha I just watched that with my kids a couple weeks ago and completely forgot that dialogue.

Do you also test metal purity and labeling on jewelry stores?

We don't do purity, no. I'm not sure which agency that would fall under.

What are the steps involved in testing a gas pump?

Basically you pump 5 gallons into a super accurate can and see what the can reads afterwards

Yeah but what happens to the gas when they are done? You can't just funnel it back o to the tank, right?

That's exactly what you do.

Two questions: in California each gas pump has the name of the inspector who certified it: do you have your own roll of stickers?

And also, does your state or coutry have legal cannabis and does the responsibility of checking their scales fall under to you?

Yes and yes. It has been a struggle with the cannabis industry to get some sort of conformity, but it's getting better.

Edit: I will also say it gets extremely frustrating working with an industry that already doesn't like the government. I have had dispensaries refuse to get certified scales and will hide their $10 Walmart pocket scale when I come in.

I'll always tell them I don't care if you are selling roast beef or crack. I just want you to sell it right.

I'm a farmer, and accurate measurement is so important to my career. Who would you recommend to purchase a set of verification weights?

Second for Rice Lake and Mettler Toledo. I have about 2000 in 50s and 25s in the back of my truck. We have 500 lb test weights to use for larger applications. I'd reach out to a local scale service company and see if they'd sell you a few. I'm sure they'd work with you. Find someone who services portable truck scales (this might actually be what you are looking to verify?).

How come you guys are so awesome? I work with scales at grocery stores in 3 states (two of which have a reciprocal license) and everyone has always been solid to work with. Better than them health department people who are by nature deranged. (Kidding, they're usually cool too)

My company pays for it, so I don't know. I basically have the same kit you have in your proof photo, how much does it cost for the annual certification at the metereology lab?

Thanks! I'm not sure on the cost.. we get them tested and never see a bill, just a calibration report. Most of my fellow inspectors are pretty chill, but there are some real headaches out there. I've been headhunted by a couple of the scale service companies I work with, but they can't compete with my schedule. Witness testing is fun because I just sit and crack jokes while I watch them work, then sign off of the paperwork.

When you hear people say "Imperial measure" when they mean "US Customary measure" do you bite your tongue?

And SI stands for International Standard, but it sounds different in French.

Why is draft beer not regulated in the US like it is in Europe? Beer is 10 to 15 times as expensive per volume as gasoline, but is so casually dispensed at bars and restaurants.

I can't attest to how it is in Europe, but there is usually a distinction between being served directly or buying something packaged. If a deli sells a ham sandwich, we don't care how much meat is there uless the store advertises "one pound of meat!"

What about the different grades of gasoline and the overall quality of each grade from gas station to gas station, do you test for these?

My miles per gallon varies by 1-3 miles depending upon where I buy my fuel, for example. I drive a lot, maybe 30 gallons unleaded per week.

Fuel samples get taken and sent to the state lab for testing. Octane values and ethanol percentage are black and white.. results either pass or fail.

You will have people tell you all over that XXX brand gasoline is better than YYY brand gasoline. Often, they all come from the same rack and just have different additives. Frankly, you get more variance in your mpg through fluctuations in your tire pressure than you do from using a different brand of gas.

Hello there, my Weights & Measures dude! My dad did the same job for 15 years before retiring. I appreciate what you do and know how crazy it can get. Take care of yourself and your gear. Have a great community outreach!

Question#1: How many people would it take to replace you if you retired today?

Question #2: What's your favorite part of the job or your favorite experience to-date?

Thanks! I find a lot of other inspectors are pretty solitary folk because a lot of the field work is just keeping yourself busy. The once every few months we have department meetings we all get some time to chat. I always take a few minutes to stop and talk to another inspector if I pass a station they are working at.

We shuffle inspectors around often when someone retires, often just moving to better parts of the state. If I retired, I'm sure another inspector would just take over my territory from somewhere else because they like the area better. New hired inspectors usually end up then with the territory nobody wants.

Favorite part of the job? It is nice getting a follow-up from a business I wrote up, showing they fixed their QC process, and thanked me for bringing the issue to their attention. As I mentioned before, most failures are negligence or ignorance. I had one company from 5 states away I sent a warning letter to and spent the next month emailing back and forth with their President trying to nail down a production line that was sending out short-weight product. But really, I just like talking about my job. Without fail, every day I am out in the field someone will start asking me questions. I love the old retired guys who crack jokes and thank me for the work I do. It reminds me of my grandfather who used to tell me as a kid all the time whenever we saw some guy out working, "hey, go ask that guy what he's doing?"

Lets say a future generation lives on Mars. Would we use the earth metric system and just weigh things in earth units or would we need entire new system to account for gravity difference?

Something about mass and weight aren't the same thing.. by then we'd need to call it universal standards, not international standards.