The original request:

Answers to the five questions:

How did the opportunity to meet M.J. come about?

When I was thirteen, my stepdad's co-worker (at the Ultramar refinery in Wilmington, CA - though they may have been Diamond Shamrock back then, I can't remember when they changed names - and they ended up being Valero before he retired)/friend had a tragedy occur in his family. His young, mentally ill wife decided it'd be a great idea to toss her two young children off the side of a bridge, into the Los Angeles River, and then jump in herself. The youngest of the two boys, Craig, sadly didn't survive. Mikey did survive, as did his mother.

The story got a lot of media attention in Los Angeles and Michael Jackson requested to attend the funeral, was welcomed, and did attend. I attended, as well, since my stepdad was close to the kids' dad. Michael Jackson stood near my stepdad and I during the graveside service. I remember him being very thin and shorter than I had expected. He also smelled good, more manly that I'd expect. His voice was deeper and more "normal" than it was during interviews/public events.

Links to info about the murder/attempted murder + info Michael attending the funeral & helping the family:

Several months later, he invited Michael Sr. (the kids' dad/my stepdad's friend & co-worker) and his family & friends to visit Neverland Ranch. My stepdad asked if I wanted to go and said I could bring a friend or two. I asked my best friend if she wanted to go with me and bring her younger sister (who was a year younger than us). Their parents said it'd be okay. (Her sister ended up not going, as she got sick the day before we went.) A couple weeks later, just before Thanksgiving, we went!

How long and how well did you know Michael?

Didn't. Met briefly, as stated above.

Did he ever act inappropriately towards you?

Nope, nor did he act inappropriately toward any of the kids who repeatedly went back to the ranch. He was also very kind, from what I heard, and never acted oddly.

How did your parents feel about you hanging out with/meeting M.J?

They thought it was a great opportunity and my stepdad actually accompanied me. Michael Jackson was not at the ranch while we visited, but it was during the time when he was married to Lisa Marie Presley. I remember a grey cat that was following me around and one of the staff members told me it was her cat. That was neat.

What did you do while there?

When we got there, the adults all had to sign consent forms and NDA paperwork. We had to check in all cameras (cell phones weren't prevalent in 1995) and recording devices. No pictures or recordings were to be taken on the grounds. So, unfortunately, I can't provide you with ~awesome photographic proof~ or anything. Sorry.

We were all loaded on a tram and taken along a winding tree-lined road to the main house.

First, we took a mini-tour of the house (holy memorabilia and art collection, Batman!), rode the train around the grounds (we didn't get to go through "the zoo" area, but we did get to see an elephant getting a bath and see a staff member feed a giraffe from the train), spent time in the arcade before lunch (BBQ picnic out on the main lawn behind the house).

After lunch we watched Ace Ventura 2 in the private movie theater (there was a private room with a bed and a couch that had a window into the theater, so a few of us older kids hung out in there, got bored and ended up wandering out to the rides), then we all rode the rides a lot (spent a lot of time on the bumper cars) before we got to raid the candy "store" and "bakery" building, where I got a bunch of suckers and cookies that were branded with the Neverland Ranch logo (see pictures).

We were all taken in groups on tours of the house, while dinner was prepared. IT WAS AWESOME. I don't think I've ever seen so many video game cartridges in one area, outside of a game store. Like, seriously, an ENTIRE WALL FILLED. The entire group then had dinner in a formal dining area. I don't remember what we had, though. Spaghetti or something like that.

After dinner, all the kids were given gifts. Younger kids were each given the new-at-the-time color-shell Gameboy and a few games, older kids were each given a top-of-the-line Sony Discman and a bunch of Michael Jackson CDs. My friend very humbly asked for a Gameboy for her little sister and they were happy to give her one and two games, which was very nice of the staff to oblige.

We then took the tram back to the parking area and drove home. Many people were invited back multiple times after that, but I never went again, due to always being busy with school or extracurricular activities. It was fun, though, and I have fond memories of the day.

Semi-proof... want to see what uneaten sixteen year old food looks like?!
All of it:
Cookies: &

EDIT: More pictures, to prove I own the cookies & sucker. One of the pictures even has comment threads from this post in the background! D'aw :3

EDIT2: A commenter found some links to cookies from the ranch that were auctioned off earlier this year. You can compare them to mine, if you wish, to show you that they are the same design, if that helps with better provenance of the cookies & sucker:

FAQ: - Why didn't I eat the cookies? They're shortbread, I hate shortbread.
- Where did he touch me? He didn't and molestation jokes are boring (especially after the first dozen).
- Did I meet his kids? No, this was prior to the kids being born (1995).
- How old was I? 14 at the funeral, 15 when I visited Neverland Ranch.
- Did I spend the night? Nope.
- Do I have more proof? Sorry, but due to the circumstances of the situation (NDAs, camera confiscation, etc.) you're gonna have to just enjoy the cookie pics & the AMA or move on with your day :)

6:30AM Pacific - NAPTIME!
I'm going to take a nap for a bit. I'll be back to answer more questions later this morning :)
9:30AM Pacific - AWAKE!

Comments: 799 • Responses: 54  • Date: 

solitarystyle897 karma

I feel bad for Michael Jackson, he seems pretty misunderstood and he did a lot of nice things for the world on top of entertaining people.

neverlandthrowaway548 karma

People, by nature, are afraid of what they don't understand or what is different from them. He didn't have a normal childhood and definitely wasn't an average man. To have remained kind to people, when it wasn't required and even after the ugliness of the initial child molestation accusations, blows me away. There are so many people out there who have money and fame, but do nothing for other people or do so on a small scale. Michael changed so many lives (for the better), mine included. My occupation (I'd say what, but it may give away my identity to people who know me on Reddit) is directly related to a video of his, which inspired me as a kid.

downtheway424 karma

My occupation ... is directly related to a video of his, which inspired me as a kid.

Are you a dancing zombie?

neverlandthrowaway341 karma

I plead the fifth.

always_wrong_yoda152 karma

The fourth amendment, you seek, if incriminate yourself, you do not wish.

neverlandthrowaway73 karma

haha... glad the first novelty account on my AMA is an amusing one.

TheNr2449 karma

Sorry if this has been asked already but do you remember what you were doing when you heard the news of his passing? How did you feel about it? Have you ever seen him preforming live as an adult? Did/do you ever defend him against people who believe he was a pedophile?

neverlandthrowaway151 karma

It hasn't been asked yet, but yes, I was working here at home when the news broke on the internet. I was in shock and immediately very sad. I called my mom to tell her (I've been a fan since I was a very young child in the early 80s and my mom was a fan since The Jackson 5) and let a few friends know via social media.

I never did get to see him perform live. And yes, I do defend him, because I think he was a great person who was falsely accused. I don't go out of my way to defend him, but if it comes up, I voice my opinion.

bwaxxlo48 karma

the fif


[deleted]69 karma


neverlandthrowaway65 karma

AHHHHHHHHHHHH! -crotch grab-

johnnygrant14 karma

neverlandthrowaway17 karma

Damn, I love me some Chris Tucker hahaha

rubberkeyhole54 karma

he's a smooth criminal.

neverlandthrowaway53 karma


Xenc22 karma

He's a mirror salesman.

neverlandthrowaway53 karma

Actually... I'm paid to leave crowbars in dark alleys, near abandoned cars.

Nuzzer16 karma


neverlandthrowaway23 karma

I almost went with magician who turns housecats into panthers, but crowbars are more fun.

solitarystyle41 karma

Well that's awesome that he inspired you and I thought this post was kind of cool because it will show a more fair depiction of michael jackson. He definitely wasn't average and what he did with his life was way more than most people will ever accomplish!

neverlandthrowaway38 karma

Thanks :)

And yeah, I doubt many will ever match his accomplishments. Lady Gaga seems to be on her way, but Michael was definitely an original.

solitarystyle27 karma

Oh yeah definitely, I love Lady Gaga, she's also another person who isn't obligated to help anyone yet tries so hard. I think a lot of times she's pretty misunderstood too.

Maybe people are just jealous?

neverlandthrowaway45 karma

I think jealousy/envy may play a pretty large part of it. Maybe if people focused that energy on helping others/making positive change in the world, we'd get more done :)

fecklessman29 karma

in my opinion, the only reason the stories went as far as they did was because someone famous said he did it, and the world just sort of thought, 'well he is kind of a wacky man-child dude...' and stuck the plausible stamp on it รก la mythbusters. it's a shame, imo, because i think the dude was just seriously misunderstood.

neverlandthrowaway14 karma


[deleted]132 karma


neverlandthrowaway86 karma


thethinkingman2093 karma


I don't think people ever understood the profound effect to which he a) was emotionally damaged as a youth, and b) did not have a chance to have a childhood, and thus was always trying to recapture it in order to heal that part of himself (and usually in ways inappropriate for what we stereotype as adult behavior, but completely appropriate for an incredibly naive but well-meaning child with more money than god).

Here's hoping he found peace and what he needed in the ever after.

neverlandthrowaway31 karma

Well said :)

robosquirrel165 karma

Thanks for sharing that. I think it made the place feel a lot easier to relate to from a kid's perspective.

neverlandthrowaway127 karma

No problem. I wish I'd gone back at least once more, but I'm glad the one time I did was at the perfect age to be able to enjoy every aspect of the experience, appreciate the uniqueness of it, and still remember most of the details into adulthood.

mopspops143 karma

Was the ranch actually Peter Pan themed - as in, pirates, mermaids, etc?

neverlandthrowaway329 karma

Nope. There wasn't an overall theme, per se, but it was very obviously a place created by someone who didn't want to grow up and wanted to continue indulging in all the best parts of childhood.

There was even this really cool giant trampoline that was level with the ground, nearish to the building which housed the arcade. You could walk across the grass and suddenly... BOING. My friend and I were on that for a good twenty minutes. It reminded me of all the dreams you have as a kid of being able to just jump into the air and fly. You almost could, with that thing.

wolfvision133 karma

I am a tiny bit jealous of your childhood

neverlandthrowaway142 karma

I'll bet you have something (or several somethings) about yours I could easily be jealous of, as well! :)

wolfvision316 karma

I was on TV (at a football game) in about '02 and as the camera came to me and my family I spilt my drink down my shirt. I don't usually brag about it but it's kinda cool

neverlandthrowaway83 karma

That is pretty cool. Much better than the time I snorted milk out my nose when my crush made me laugh, at fifth grade nature camp, and got snot & milk all over my shirt and our counselor wouldn't let me change. GO ME!

See? My childhood has little to be jealous of ;)

wolfvision44 karma

That made me smile, thanks. Had a bit of a rough day haha. A little bit of snot never hurt no body though ;-)

neverlandthrowaway49 karma

In fifth grade, it made me a pariah! And glad I could elicit a smile haha

rosscatherall94 karma

You elicited masturbation from me, thanks!

neverlandthrowaway91 karma


ikindalike133 karma

No more questions from me, but I just want to share this wonderful clip that makes me giggle every time. I love to tour!

neverlandthrowaway54 karma

That made me laugh... too funny! You can kind of hear the deeper tones of his "normal" voice there, too, under the surface. Seeing him be genuine like that makes me smile. Thanks for sharing!

skyhighfall91 karma

Here's some youtube news footage about Michael attending the funeral.

That's really nice that he kept in touch with the people involved. I remember hearing he would call Ryan White's mother up on Mother's Day after he passed, because he knew Ryan couldn't.

I hope the kid is doing okay now.

neverlandthrowaway147 karma

The fact that he set up the scholarship for Mikey was awesome. Mikey's dad died unexpectedly a few years later of a heart attack and Michael stepped in to foot the costs of the funeral (or so I was told). I do believe he was a genuinely caring person and really did want to make sure kids never wanted for anything.

mattrubik97 karma

It's a shame that it probably won't be these sort of things that he'll be remembered for.

neverlandthrowaway102 karma

I agree. He did so many wonderful things for kids and humans in general, yet so many people focus on unproven (and disproven) rumors of things that may or may not have taken place.

Elementium77 karma

I think he was just trying to have a childhood. His parents (or father atleast) never treated their kids as kids but rather as a paycheck. I think his father probably forced Michael to keep his voice as close to his childhood voice for as long as possible while making him work non-stop and taking away his childhood. Creating that awkward man that was such an easy target.

And honestly, proof of his father being, not just a dick but an evil human being is there.. during MJ's funeral the man is FILMED advertising some new music label or something with some other guy.

neverlandthrowaway24 karma

Completely agree.

scout-finch82 karma

I've always thought that Michael was probably a decent (or better than) guy who just had some weirdness due to his childhood and fame. This helps solidify that for me. I don't have any questions because you told your story so well, but thanks for doing that!

neverlandthrowaway45 karma

Glad to help shed some light on the situation a bit more. And kudos on the To Kill A Mockingbird username reference! Great book!

gyarrrrr57 karma

After lunch we watched Ace Ventura 2 in the private movie theater

So you were abused.

neverlandthrowaway129 karma

Hey, I left about 20 minutes into it, so it was like... just the tip.

netgod200256 karma

I never used to like M.J. as a person or performer. Mainly because of the way the media portrayed him to be with all his weird acts. But after his death, I bought one of his DVDs and watched it start to finish out of curiosity.

It was one of his performances from the late 80's. And now I can say I'm a huge fan of not only his music, but his ability to have people worship him on such a large scale. There's just something about him that was special.

I've never seen so many people being dragged out of a concert because they just lost their shit for being at a M.J. concert. It's truly remarkable the shear amount of people that came to see a concert like that.

Personally, in my own opinion, I don't think I'll ever get to see somebody as GOOD as him ever again in my life time.

It taught me a valuable lesson on the way the media can portray a person after that.

neverlandthrowaway21 karma

That's pretty awesome. Thanks for sharing :)

fastburner56 karma

Sorry, I have nothing of value to comment with, but I am on a no-carb diet right now and those 16 year old cookies look delicious.

neverlandthrowaway29 karma

Want me to crack the icing off and send it to you? (Sorry, I'm a terrible enabler.)

fastburner16 karma

Haha, I'd hate to ruin your souvenier!

neverlandthrowaway20 karma

I have two. They're going to fall apart someday, might as well have fun with them.

hrtaus46 karma

How were the staff? Did they seem happy to be there? Were they fun people or were they burnt out and unsocial?

neverlandthrowaway63 karma

They all seemed very genuinely glad to be there and were hospitable. They wanted us to have a good time and encouraged us to ask questions and make requests, if we had them. Even the security personnel seemed to want to be there and were more like members of our group, joking around with kids, rather than guards.

Fali9535 karma

What was your reaction when you heard about his child molestation case? Do still believe he did that?

neverlandthrowaway100 karma

I never believed it happened. The original allegations were still kind of newish back when I visited and it was impossible for me to believe back then, given the level of kindness my family's friends were shown in their time of tragedy and the hospitality we were all shown when visiting. Someone who goes out of their way to help people in that manner wouldn't do something to harm a child.

When the second allegation came out, about ten years later, I was angry. People are money-hungry and don't care who they hurt to get ahead in life. It's really sad that a decent human who was so giving of himself would be dragged through the mud like that.

captainenema30 karma

I went to a private boarding school right across the road from the Neverland Ranch in the early 1990s. I remember hearing that @#$#ing tram tooting its whistle all hours of the night and day. Kids from my school used to try and sneak onto his property, but apparently he hired his security from Delta force because none of them made it very far.

Ol' MJ did used to hire local kids to work on his ranch. One of the faculty members had a son who did some work for the ranch on a few occasions. He said it paid well, never once saw MJ, and was treated pretty well by everyone there.

neverlandthrowaway18 karma

That's a private school? I always wondered!

jabanicat28 karma

This is great! Thanks for doing this.

neverlandthrowaway10 karma

Glad you enjoyed it :)

thetermite23 karma

Sounds like an amazing experience!

What year was it when you went?

neverlandthrowaway25 karma

November of 1995.

the_nard_dawg23 karma

Have you ever considered putting those cookies up for bid on Ebay? Wonder what you'd get for them.

neverlandthrowaway34 karma

I have considered putting the cookies & sucker up as a package a few times, but it's difficult to part with them. I probably should at some point, before they completely deteriorate, but I have a feeling I'd probably only get like $5 for the whole lot with the condition they're in.

ihaveacalculator34 karma

but I have a feeling I'd probably only get like $5 for the whole lot with the condition they're in.

Don't underestimate the love of Michael Jackson fans. I'm sure you'd make at least a grand per cookie. Seriously, those are some extremely rare items.

neverlandthrowaway29 karma

Good point. I was talking to a friend about this AMA and she said the same thing. TEMPTING...

hybbprqag20 karma

You could always auction them off and then donate the proceeds to the Make a Wish foundation or something.

neverlandthrowaway53 karma

I could. Or I could reward myself and pay off some medical bills. WHEE!

VlkaFenryka21 karma

I never saw this IAMA request, however my little cousin went as his father was MJ's manager at the time. They both had only good things to say about the trip.

neverlandthrowaway7 karma

That's pretty awesome! It'd have been difficult to say anything negative, because really, it truly was a kid's paradise.

tiramisucake2221 karma

I'm surprised no other alumni of a school in Los Olivos wrote in (or maybe no one else from there is on Reddit). I went to a small, ~80 person boarding school (high school) almost directly across the street from Neverland. Once a year, the whole school (including faculty, to my knowledge) was invited for a day at Neverland. So after breakfast, we'd all troupe out the driveway of the school, down the road a couple hundred yards, and walk the loooooonnnng driveway into Neverland. When we were there, MJ wasn't on the ranch (this is in 2000, so I don't know what was going on in his life at that time). His PR spokeswoman met us, welcomed us, and told us what was planned for the day. We piled on to the tram, which took us over to the movie theater/amusement park area. They served as a big, catered BBQ lunch (the regular offerings, hot dogs, BBQ chicken, coleslaw, potato salad, etc.). Afterwards, I watched the movie Blue Streak (with Martin Lawrence) in the movie theater. That movie theater was sick. Instead of cramming yourself into uncomfortable lumpy chairs with shared arm rests, everyone got this plush velvety red Barcalounger-type chair. Complete with cupholders. In the lobby of the movie theater, they had a concession stand, just like in a regular theater. Instead, you just went up, asked for what you wanted ("I'd like a small popcorn, a Coke, and a package of Skittles"), and it was handed to you. It sort of boggled my 14-year old mind that it was just handed to me. For free. Anyway, post-movie, we went to the amusement park (some of the kids went to the zoo, but I chose the rides). We horsed around on the rides, especially the bumper cars, for a couple hours. I loved that big swing device (it's round, turns, and has lots of those little seats on long ropes that swings you outwards). Then we walked back across the grounds, on the lawn, past the main house, and then back to school.

One thing to note about the grounds, and more generally to the whole experience. It was like a kid designed them in some way. Seriously, ask any 5 year old to tell you what they want at their dream house, and it would go something like: "I want a zoo! And I want a movie theater with free candy! And a train that goes choo-choo. And my own amusement park". It was JUST LIKE THAT. Besides that, though, the one thing that stuck out in my mind about the grounds were the statues. You'd think that someone with a boatload of money would buy, if they wanted statues, a variety. Nope. Not MJ. The lawn statuary was all bronze figures of children at play. This one about kids skipping a rock across a pond, this over here was kids skipping along a long, another of two kids fishing in a pond, this one of kids playing hopscotch. It was like whoever designed this only wanted to see children's happiness and playtime. It was rather odd.

neverlandthrowaway5 karma

A couple other people from the boarding school have commented on this post about either being invited to the ranch or knowing about kids attempting to sneak onto the property. Until the first of them posted earlier this morning, I never knew that was a boarding school, just figured it was a local public school for the area kids!

Your evaluation of the grounds is on par with my memory of it. "It was like whoever designed this only wanted to see children's happiness and playtime." is exactly what it seemed like to me. It really was like a kid designed it.

Also, when we were there, nobody was staffing the concession stand, we just helped ourselves. As a fourteen year old also at that time, I'm right there with you: MIND BOGGLED.

knightwave20 karma

This is awesome. It was extremely interesting to read about your experience. Everyone still speculates so much about Michael, and you rarely hear about the stories like this. Thanks for sharing.

neverlandthrowaway20 karma

No problem. Glad I could contribute to a request. Even sixteen years later (well, almost seventeen now), it still seems a bit surreal to me. It's one of those places which seems almost mythical to a lot of people and to have been in the presence of someone who was so well-known kinda trips me out even now.

kimcheekumquat19 karma

MJ was awesome and talented. Fuck the haters.

What do you usually say to people who openly disrespect/make fun of him?

neverlandthrowaway24 karma

I either ignore them/roll my eyes or explain that I never saw or heard anything that would lead me to believe the allegations. Depends on who they are and how immature they're being. Not going to waste my time on people who are determined to drag others through the mud for no reason... no point :)

sorry4partying15 karma

Were you scared of him at all? I don't believe the molestation accusations either, but just the way he looked and talked would have creeped me out if I met him when I was a 13 year-old kid.

neverlandthrowaway43 karma

Nothing about him scared me. He wasn't that much taller than me and while the plastic surgery results were a little surprising to see up close, he had an aura of calm and he was smiling & gracious when introduced to people. Nothing threatening at all.

seltaeb415 karma

Did you climb a tree?

neverlandthrowaway16 karma

Actually, I did! And dropped water balloons on my friend! :D

[deleted]12 karma

My favorite part about your story was the cat thing!

neverlandthrowaway12 karma

That's my favorite part, too, as a notorious catlady. I was so delighted that a cat was following me and wanted me to pet it. I sat down at one point and did just that. That's when I was told it was Lisa Marie's cat.

mishtram12 karma

Wow, you're really lucky. Any interesting stories from this brief experience?

neverlandthrowaway19 karma

I don't know what other people would consider interesting, other than what I wrote already. It was a very full day and there was a LOT that happened.

We got to meet one of the chimps (can't remember if it was Bubbles or not), who was dressed in overalls. He held my hand for a few minutes, which was neat. Looking back now, knowing what I know about chimps, HOLY DAMN THAT WAS CRAZY... chimps are dangerous.

The doll room was a little creepy, but only because I don't like dolls. They're eerie to me. There were a lot of antique/vintage toys in there, too. Also, a lot of movie and music memorabilia throughout the house. A lot of it felt very homey, though, almost like a country cottage or a house I'd imagine you'd find in the midwestern US. It was huge, but mostly felt comfortable and quaint.

funkseoulbrotha10 karma

I think you should eat one of the cookies.

For science.

neverlandthrowaway14 karma

Yeah, so like, I kinda value my life and I hate shortbread (which is why they weren't eaten in the first place)... so uhh... WHO WANTS TO EAT ONE FOR SCIENCE? :D

alchemyy8 karma

I do!

neverlandthrowaway9 karma

If you're in California and would allow me to video it (without holding me responsible for any consequences haha), I'll let you!

ikindalike9 karma

Did he ever sing to you guys?

neverlandthrowaway23 karma

He didn't at the funeral and wasn't at home when I was there, but in subsequent visits, he did sing songs with some of the kids who were there. One of the reasons I kick myself for not going back!

ikindalike8 karma

That's so amazing. I wish I could have sang with him.

Another question, from what I can gather, he seems like a person with a great sense of humor, is this true? :) Thank you so much for this AMA!

neverlandthrowaway19 karma

From what everyone said about the later visits, he did have a good sense of humor and loved to tell jokes. He also engaged in a lot of playful teasing and liked to make people laugh. Very much a kid at heart.

wolfvision5 karma

This is just more proof as to how the media can have an effect on the portrayal of famous people. From what I've read he seemed like a genuine guy, only out to make people lives better. I'm so glad I stumbled upon this AMA. Thanks for doing this!

neverlandthrowaway10 karma

That's exactly how I saw him... a genuine guy who just wanted to make people happy and make up for missing out on having some semblance of a normal childhood.

sorry4partying9 karma

It sounds he didn't offer for you guys to stay over. Why were some kids able to stay overnight and some weren't? Do you know how often he let kids stay over?

neverlandthrowaway21 karma

Not that particular visit, but some kids did get to later. I can't answer as to why some were and weren't or how often. But I think the situations where he had personal relationships with their families and he felt a kinship with, those were the ones who were invited to be more part of his life than just the ones who were asked to visit and hang out.

baconperogies9 karma

Who were the other kids that went? Did you keep in touch with them?

Still have the walkman/gameboy?

Michael sounds awesome. I'm voting for misunderstood.

neverlandthrowaway10 karma

They were cousins of Mikey's and other kids of family friends. No, I didn't know most of them and I don't keep in touch with many people from my childhood.

Nope, don't still have the Discman, it by the end of junior high and I don't make it a habit to keep broken electronics. I believe my friend still has her sister's Gameboy, though.

Nesman648 karma

tl;dr: Met Elvis's grandcat.

neverlandthrowaway5 karma

HAHA... that's exactly how my mom phrased it when I told her about it.

dookieface5 karma

Didn't that kid step out and said the whole molestion thing was a lie?

neverlandthrowaway5 karma

The first one, yes.