Ask a bird lawyer anything! Ask me about animal law!

How often do you and Charlie exchange trade secrets? And should you go toe-to-toe on bird law who would come out the victor?

Charlie has... an intense dedication or obsession that neither I or anyone will ever be able to match.

"It's just that bird law in this country—it's not governed by reason"

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True or False?

True...?

Did “Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law” at all influence your legal career or practice? And do you ever exclaim, “I’ll take the case!” when you ... take a case?

Well I have never expressly said I'll take the case! I do get pretty giddy but try to remain calm, cool, and collected so I don't seem unprofessional when a really fun case comes in.

Hey, did you get that thing...I sent you?

Maybe.

and collected so I don't seem unprofessional when a really fun case comes in.

What's an example of a really fun animal law case?

The geeky lawyer in me thinks a fun case is when there's lots of unexplored issues or a really cool animal involved that's not just a dog and cat.

Are your clients typically flight risks? Oof, sorry. But really, what does animal law... entail?

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I hate myself. Sorry.

Not always flight risks!

Animal law is really anything that deals with animals, civil or criminal. My goal is to help pet owners or businesses that provide services.

That's interesting!! What kinds of cases do you see?

Conversion, replevin, breach of contract, etc.

Can hummingbirds be used as a legal tender?

I have a feeling you're going to get a call from PETA very soon. Do not try to use live animals as tender.

What about chicken tenders?

Honestly, I think the world would be a better place if we all had more chicken tenders because they're delicious.

If my pet rooster pecks out the mailman's eyes while he (the mailman) was railing my husband, am I liable under strict liability?

Or is this contributory negligence on mailman's part?

That seems oddly specific so I'm going to say that you probably need local counsel to help you with that one.

Okay. Follow up question, if the mailman sues in federal court claiming federal question jurisdiction, does the Eerie doctrine apply?

They're really not enough facts here. And I am not federally barred so I'm not going to speculate.

How did you end up getting into animal law as a career? Any advice for someone who is interested in that field? I did an internship related to it during law school (specifically, it was a government internship, helping with prosecuting animal cruelty cases), and I would love to go into it because animal protection is a passion of mine, but it seems like there just aren't a lot of job openings I can apply for!

When I started law school I always wondered what I could do. I joined the animal law society. From that group I got an internship with the animal docket at municipal court so I got to learn the criminal side of animal related stuff fairly quickly. Beyond that it's figure out how to apply civil law to animal related issues to help owners and businesses and anyone else that you're wanting to assist. I volunteered at a low costs vaccination clinic and welfare group, so I started seeing the issues in person and first hand.

Who was the most memorable bird you've represented?

Fun fact, I currently am helping a bird! That one is my favorite.

You can't just leave it hanging like that. What, is the bird being evicted? Need an emancipation from abusive parents?

Can't talk about an ongoing case.

What do you think about the book Fuzzy nation concerning the "sentience" of animals? Specifically in the sense of rights and recognition for future species.

So there is a lot of literature out there about the status of animals in the law and whether or not they should be more than property. There are pros and cons to both and it's a very intense discussion. I don't think the legal system is ready to change the status of animals yet and I don't know that the laws could keep up with it right now.

Personally, I think that having more than property status is going to be too confusing for Missouri to handle right now. As property, there is a lot of civil law that applies and the criminal law system is catching up to help with abuse and neglect cases.

How could they be more than property if they cannot make decisions? They can only be interpreted no?

What makes you think they can't make decisions? Also, following that line of thinking children have no protections are right because how are they supposed to make decisions? There's arguments about quasi property status in order to get higher values associated to pets to make it worthwhile to actually sue someone.

Well an animal couldn't decide if it wants a DNR. And children have legal guardians until the mature age of 18 for a reason, I would imagine the reason is along the lines of metal development. If an animal could gain another legal status other that property, what would that legal status be?

Then why not have guardians for animals in cases? This is honestly a great discussion because how animals are defined in the law really comes down to how are we trying to help them? What kind of outcome are we wanting? Right now, being classified as property gives them the best chance of getting an outcome that helps owners. That could definitely change as legislation changes.

What would be the difference for animals in that they are changed from property to having a Guardian? What would they gain from it?

Value if lost, stolen, or killed and best interests determinations come to mind off the top of my head.

Im no law expert but that sounds alot like property insurance.

The law only takes into consideration actual value or lost income for the owner of the property. So if you have an adopted dog that is killed you cannot sue for emotional damages for that lost property.

I must ask, you are a dog or a cat person?

Both! They both have a place in my heart.

Does animal law applies to all animals without restrictions (e.g. size) or animals like ants and beetles are excluded?

Laws usually specify what type of animals they fall to such as domesticated pets or agricultural animals. I've yet to see anything help ants and beetles.

Has animal law improved from say 50 years ago?

There has been a lot of case law over the last 50 years to help define or expand laws and a lot of changes in criminal law to help with the abuse of animals across most states. However, it is becoming more common to see suits being brought related to animals. Equine and agricultural related lawsuits and laws have definitely changed over the last 50 years and that affects companion animals, as well.

Okay so my landlord is a bird. And we signed a 1-year lease with him. Due to unforeseen circumstances, we had to break the lease after 4 months. Now, he claims he can get a lean on us for the remaining owed rent, but has failed to post the availability of the apartment anywhere, and it seems to us he is not making a reasonable attempt to fill the vacancy to avoid us having to pay this lean. What is our recourse, legally speaking? I don't know if it's relevant to the jurisprudence at all, but he's a Golden-crowned Thrush.

Void contract, birds can't sign them. Next.

If you were a hot dog, would it be assault or damage to property if you ate yourself?

That sounds more like suicide...

What are your thoughts on the Monkey selfie copyright dispute?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_dispute

I'm not sure the monkey understood what he was doing. Even then he didn't own the phone so that causes an issue too. I'm not sure we're ready for monkeys to own things.

Are birds real?

Maybe.

Can animals technically own things?

Not in Missouri. I'd wager $5 most states are the same.

Have you ever had a criminal case involving animals?

All the time. I help with a lot of animal ordinance violations and those are all criminal matters. These range from injuring the mailman to just getting loose and causing general mayhem.

Are you aware of any pushes to treat animals/pets as more than just chattel? This may be rudimentary or obvious to you, but I think a lot of people would be surprised to find that even our beloved pets are given only a small dollar value when something happens.

You are exactly right that a lot of my clients are very upset to find out that their beloved pooch is only worth $50, which was the adoption fee they paid. However, changing the status of animals some more than property makes it very difficult right now in my state to help them. It would take a huge overhaul of the legal system or at the very least changing who is on the bench to people who are more sympathetic towards animal related issues.

Do birds have less rights than other animals or are they all in a generic category?

In Missouri, rights for animals fall to their owners unless they're being abused/neglected.

Are birds regarded as dinosaurs for legal purposes in Missouri?

Negative. Nothing about dinosaurs, sadly.

Is there a book of animal law I can consult?

Depends on what you're trying to learn about it. If you're trying to understand jurisdiction issues and status as property there are a lot of theory books out there. If you're looking for a local laws or rules you'll just have to search online for your state statutes and city ordinances.

What’s something you recently found fascinating about bird law?

Parrots live a really long time! Thank you for subscribing to bird facts?

Have you ever had an animal present in court, and was it well behaved?

Had a blind woman testify in court in a custody case and she had her service dog with her. He was a very good boy.

Finally, an AMA I can sink my talons into!

What made you choose to study the laws of my majestic order? And, hypothetically, how would an innocent owl go about starting a class action lawsuit against a slanderous murder of crows?

Started by trying to help pets and the best way to help them is helping their owners.

Who’s the better attorney, Charlie Kelly or that Jew lawyer?

Charlie. His knowledge runs deep.

Would you represent birdman from Rick and Morty?

... maybe

Can I domesticate this blue jay that hangs out near my yard and claim him as my own?

Good luck, those guys are really mean.

Are farm animals, like cows and sheep, meant to have the same animal cruelty protections as household pets like cats and dogs?

No, they are governed by agricultural laws and not domesticated companion animal laws.

There was a recent post on reddit. A girl thought her friend was neglecting a pet bird so she stole it and took it home while the friend was in the other room. When the friend asked for the bird back, she said no, it was going to die, my bird now, the bird is happier now. The friend then said they might call police

How many laws were broken?

In Missouri, the only one in the scenario who brokethe law was the friend who took the bird. The original owner would have to be investigated by animal control and tickets issued to them. the friends thoughts on whether or not the bird is being abused doesn't mean anything if it doesn't meet the statutory definitions of abuse or city ordinance definitions of abuse.

I agree. Only reason I'm asking is because I had several people yell at me and say, "THE BIRD WAS DYING" and that you can remove animals like that, that so many random redditors work with rescue animals and no judge would ever make someone return the bird. I said no way, maybe remove it from immediate danger but you've gotta go to the vet or police with it, you can't just say it's yours now. The person had even kept the bird for several days, no vet, said it was now happier - all evidence it was even unhappy was reasonably gone. But... Eh. Yeah you can't just take things from people. Authorities can but not normal people

A private individual has no rights to take someone else's property you have to call someone who has the ability to do it.

Do you have a favourite bird?

The eagle. I am an American.

Do you think owners of pets should be able to recover for their pain and suffering as a result of a tort that leads to the death of their pet?

I personally do yes but how we measure it is the hard part.

If my dog is attacked and killed by another dog, can I sue for pain and suffering? Or do I only get damaged based on vet bills and cost to replace said pet?

You get actual damages only. Value of the dog, vet bills, etc. Maybe a claim for lost wages for you and possible lost income if your dog was able to be bred and you wete intending to or have been breeding it.

My neighbors' dog keeps getting out of their yard and pooping in mine. Am I breaking any laws by throwing the poop back into their yard?

I'm not sure, but you should definitely get a video of that occurring and tell your local animal control.

Is it legal to have sex with a sheep?

Only in Wales I think.

Have you ever eaten a former client?

Clearly not.

[deleted]

Yes

Any thoughts on Robert Stroud, The Bird Man of Alcatraz?

Yep I have thoughts.

Do you represent the animals or their owners, legally? Like if my dog destroys a mailbox or whatever, are you representing me or the dog in court?

My job is to help the owners because the owners are responsible for what their dogs do. Similar to parents who are held responsible for that broken window from the ball their kid threw.

As a danish law student the concept of felony murder seems ridiculous. What are your thoughts on it?

It is a punitive measure for sure. However I don't handle murder cases so I can't comment too much on that doctrine.

Is bird law more or less complicated than tree law?

I'd say less because property and real estate law seems very complicated to me.

How often are you working on cases specifically regarding birds?

Can you share any laws that cat owners should be aware about but probably aren't?

I wish I had better questions. What a cool AMA.

I have a case right now involving a bird that's really fun. As far as cat owners go the one thing they should know is that they need yearly shots and city licenses if your city requires it.

I never thought about cities requiring yearly shots, interesting. Good to know! Thank you!

Not just a legal thing; cats in general need annual shots.

Shooting a rabid animal in city limits.

It is a threat to kill a person but requires discharging a firearm. Mens Rea?

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Edit: I know you won't answer this but my grandfather was a judge that taught me about this. I also have this issue currently at my house. The answer is very complicated. I chose to not shoot because I can trap it.

This skunk was chasing an elderly woman. I would shoot that (but I was in my underwear). But you can't shoot and hit someone else. My question gets weird.

The last I knew in order to be felony murder the original act has to be egregious as well so shooting a rabid animal may not meet that. It would possibly be a voluntary manslaughter or something else not felony murder.

If I find a bird of prey dead along the side of the road, can I scoop it up and taxidermy it? Does it matter if it’s something like one of the common hawks that are everywhere in the Midwest vs something more special like a bald eagle or condor?

I'm going to advise you to never touch a dead animal.