I'm a former Catholic monk. AMA

Why'd you leave?

Wasn’t really one single reason, there were a bunch. Political, cultural, personal, intellectual. But a major breaking point was that at the time I was studying philosophy (with permission from the order), and I was studying Kant, Hegel, Marx, Neitzsche. Really hard to maintain it if you take any of those guys seriously.

Also learning about Church history (and I’m not talking about the crusades, like even the past couple hundred years)

Really hard to maintain it if you take any of those guys seriously.

Idk about that. You can certainly take an idea seriously and understand the logical foundation that can lead someone to think a particular way while still coming to a different conclusion yourself.

In some cases that’s true. But there are times/thoughts/arguments where you have to make a decision. For example, it is Catholic dogma that the existence of God can be known by human reason, whereas Kant argues at length (to me, convincingly) that human reason is capable of no such thing. They can’t both be right. That’s just one example.

Edit: a word

What do you miss the most since you left the church?

Honestly, this might sound shallow, but financial and vocational security. Having great health insurance, not paying rent, free food and booze, and always guaranteed a job. When I decided to leave, the few non-religious friends I had at the time were like, “What are you doing? This is an amazing deal!”

It was, but it came with a price

Edit: a word

What was that price?

Vow of obedience. And chastity. (Jesuit poverty doesn’t really count.) And living your whole life representing an institution you’re not sure at the end of the day is really defensible. Your life really isn’t your own. And, like, you get reminded of that in so many words on a regular basis

I thought you all had four vows as opposed to the typical 3. I was with the Cistercians for awhile. They had vows of obedience, change of ways and stability.

What were your vows? All I can remember is you all had something to do with the pope.

Yes, most Jesuits eventually do take a 4th vow of loyalty to the pope. There’s a difference between first vows and final vows. I had taken first vows (poverty, chastity, obedience), which in the Jesuits are perpetual (I had to write a letter to Rome to get dismissed from them). But eventually, after ordination and time in ministry, you get invited to take final vows, and final vows may or may not include the 4th vow (it’s up to the bigwigs whether they offer it to you or not, and it’s very secretive; no one is supposed to know who has it or doesn’t. But most guys have it).

You have to be in the order for about 15+ years to make it to final vows

Cistercians— that’s hard core

Free booze as in communion wine? Was their always a stocked fridge?

No I mean free booze as in every community has a liquor cabinet and, yes, a fully stocked fridge. Toward the end when I knew I was one my way out, my favorite part of daily mass was looking forward to a nice Dewars after

TIL monks get lit

Well they don't fuck so they have to have something.

You don’t know how true that is

What do you do for a living now?

I’m a server and actively looking for jobs in publishing. You know anybody?

The publishing field is notoriously hard to break into. The people I know who have jobs in publishing are either unpaid slush readers or low-level editors working in presses associated with their university press, and higher level editors have been in their positions for years, even decades.

Are you looking for publishing or are you looking for writing jobs? They overlap, but writing is producing content whereas publishing is the business of getting that content out into the world (to grossly oversimplify).

Yeah I’ve applied to more Editorial Assistant jobs than I can count. I do also enjoy writing, have thought about trying to find some freelance writing work

Maybe a little personal but did you ever struggle with the vow of celibacy? I feel like that goes against the very fabric of being human and had to be a bitch to subdue

Yeah, for sure I did. And some guys who seemed to have a higher sex drive than me struggled with it a LOT. I felt/feel bad for them

I go to a Catholic school called Seton Hall in NJ We’ve got a couple of monks on campus (long grey robes) and I see them playing soccer in them, and ultimate frisbee. Are you constantly wearing the robes, and if so how long did it take for your body to adjust to wearing them all the time?

Jesuits used to wear black robes with a sash up until Vatican II (early 60s), but then they went back to wearing street clothes. At formal occasions you had to wear the Roman collar, otherwise whatever

Did you guys ever have a West Side Story-style snap-and-dance battle with the Franciscans?

Haha would have been fun. There was definitely a bit of a rivalry, but it was all in fun

How was it readapting to secular life?

Fun and challenging at the same time. Everything seemed new, like I was doing it for the first time. Even little things, like buying sheets. And although I have lived in the world before, it was my first time really being a secular person, because I’d always been intensely religious before. So figuring that out was fun too.

Of course, it’s lonely. Definitely that. And then pretty quick you realize you need to look for a job and start paying rent and oh yeah, health insurance. So bittersweet, I’d say

Sounds like getting out of prison after a long stretch.

Haha maybe a little. Definitely felt like a whole different kind of life

Do you still believe in God?

Oddly, I do, though I have no real reason or arguments as to why. It seems to just kind of be in me. But I don’t practice anymore; I don’t go to mass or pray and would consider myself non-religious

What will you take with you from that experience?

I grew a lot. I don’t regret leaving, but I’m grateful I did it. Made me a better person. Had experiences I never would have otherwise. Went to new places. Met some great people. (Some real assholes, too, but since I’m not in it anymore, now I only talk to the ones I liked)

Did everyone in your order/community seem to be genuine? Or was anyone obviously lying about their faith?

Most guys seemed pretty genuine. Some guys (though in the Jesuits, not all that many, but you’d find this a lot more in other sectors of Catholicism) were so rigid and austere in their faith that you were like, what are you hiding from? And there were a couple who, on rare moments or when we’d been drinking heavily, were open about their doubts. I admired them

Edit: a couple words

Could you describe your day to day? Did you have any stand out experiences?

Day to day varied depending on what stage of “formation” you were in, and what your ministry/assignment was. When I left, I had been granted permission to start graduate studies in philosophy. So I took classes and wrote papers like a regular student. But then also you were expected to go to daily mass (theoretically 7 days/week) and be at community dinner as often as possible. Mass was held in the community chapel every day except Sunday, so you just had to walk downstairs or across the hall to get there. And you were expected to pray for about an hour a day on your own.

A couple standout experiences, both from the novitiate (two-year boot camp before taking vows). I spent two Saturdays at a Church in McAllen, TX, which is a major arrival point for the people coming up from Central America seeking asylum. This parish had at the time at least been given special permission by ICE to help people. So like, ICE would literally drop these people off at the parish after they had processed them. Many arrived wearing ankle bracelets. Anyway, they gave them food, toiletries, and a place to rest. Since these people were seeking asylum, they all had a court date, and most had someone in the US they knew to stay with until then. So the volunteers would also inform people about their court dates and their rights and where to catch the bus.

Well, my first day there I remember meeting Anthony. He was 15 and from El Salvador. He’d come up with his mom. He told me they had hopped trains, and had frequently had to duck and hide. His back hurt. I still think of him often. Anthony, I hope you’re ok.

Another interesting (and far less serious in a humanitarian sense) time was when they sent us out with a one-way bus ticket and $35 cash and said, don’t come back for a month. That one was actually kinda fun...

I want to hear more about the month on $35. How did you do it?

The most interesting part was when I made it to Maine. I was trying to make it to Acadia but didn’t have much money left and was spending the night in Portland. Wanted to sleep outside by the water, found a place that I thought would be out of view of cops, but it was still late April and by 10:00 it was too cold. So I walked back to the men’s shelter (I’d learned it’s location previously just in case), and fortunately they still had room.

Next day took the bus to Bangor and then got out at the bus station and had to figure out what to do next. Station attendant said he thought maybe there was a shuttle then a ferry, but he wasn’t sure. I spotted a middle aged couple in the parking lot packing up their car. They looked outdoorsy and cool. I walked up to them and asked if they knew how to get to Acadia. They paused for a minute and looked at each other, and then she looked back at me and said, “We live there. We’ll give you a ride.”

There was more than enough time on the way down to explain what I was doing (Jesuit Novice on “pilgrimage,” as they called this experience). Turns out R and J had just moved into their new home from D.C., and needed a lot of work done around the place. We agreed that, in return for working around their place, I would stay with them and be able to explore Acadia. And it turned out the first thing they wanted done was to get the invasive Norway maples out of their yard. So R taught me how to use a chainsaw, and I spent half of each day as a Maine woodsman cutting down trees. Then I got on a bike and rode around the park and hiked.

Edit: a few words

Is Pope Francis no longer a Jesuit?

Not technically, no. He stopped being one the moment he became a bishop. Anyone who is in a religious order is released from their vows if they are ordained a bishop. (Though I think he probably still is a Jesuit in his heart)

Edit: a word

I understood him to be a 'Black Pope', meaning one of the Jesuit tradition. Could you please explain this? Thank you!

"Black Pope" was an old term used to refer to the superior general (worldwide superior) of the Jesuits, back in the day when they used to wear black robes. So that term didn't apply to the actual pope

What was the internal party line when it came to allegations of impropriety?

I’m guessing you mean sexual impropriety? Well, you would be removed from ministry for starters. Then it would depend on whether there were legal allegations (I.e., was it a minor or did you just have an affair?). If it was with a consenting adult, then you would probably be out of public ministry for a while and so some serious retreat time and probably therapy. Eventually you might be returned to ministry.

These days, the Jesuits have cleaned up their act and do cooperate with law enforcement investigations.

Were you in the order long enough to learn that Jesuits aren't monks?

Haha, I figured I’d take some heat for that. I know, but I put it in the title because I figured the distinction between “monk” and “vowed religious” would be lost on most people

What were the boring and ridiculous things that you won't miss?

“Faith Sharing.” These were these mandatory peer accountability groups where you had to meet with other guys to talk about your struggles and your relationship with God. God, was it awful.

Any kind of mandatory community meeting. And fuck am I glad I never have to attend another chastity workshop. (Yup, we had those)

Have you been dating at all since you left the church?

Not a whole lot, not as much as I’d like. Still trying to feel comfortable in my own skin first as a secular person, and also trying to get things in order financially/vocationally, etc

And fuck, it’s intimidating. But it’s on the agenda

Do you ever second guess your decision?

That was a big commitment.

Thanks for asking. No, I haven’t regretted leaving once. I also don’t regret having joined

Excorcisms - are they actually a thing? And if so, would you mind sharing your viewpoints and experiences with them?

They are a thing, they’re very rarely done though. Every diocese has one trained exorcist, and his identity is usually not supposed to be known. They only resort to exorcism in very rare extreme cases, when they’ve supposedly exhausted all other options.

Personally, I do not believe demons exist

Out of all types of monks, which is your favourite? And if there any form of rivalry? Like do the Jesuits make fun of the Gregorians?

There is kind of a rivalry, these days mostly friendly. (In the past it wasn’t always so). I like the Jesuits for their commitment (at least in theory) to study and learning. I like the Franciscans because they actually live the vow of poverty

Went to Catholic HS. Our class valedictorian had gone to Catholic school his whole life and shared with me his view that "The Catholic Church is the biggest business in the world." What are your thoughts on this, especially considering the funding of religious orders like Jesuits and Capuchins?

Yeah the Church is definitely wealthy. In my city they are one of the largest property owners. And the Jesuits definitely have money. And the leadership of the order (at least in North America) thinks in very practical terms, and there’s a lot of HR/corporate lingo

Edit: a word

I went to Catholic grade school & high school and was a practicing Catholic until about 10-15 years ago,

I am fully aware of how many Catholics drink but what your views on drug use? Would you get in trouble if you got caught smoking pot? What about if you got hurt & required opiate painkillers but continued taking them even if you didn't need them & got addicted. Is there punishment for addiction (outside of alcoholism)?

So one time a young Jesuit— it was a friend of mine, guys, honestly— may or may not have smoked up with a friend of a brother who had just taken vows that day at his celebration party. The guy felt so bad he went to his superior the next day and confessed it all. And his superior said: “Was that a wise decision?”

“No.”

“Are you going to do it again?”

“No.”

End of conversation.

There are addiction treatment centers for men and women who are in religious orders. The prevalence of alcoholism among priests and vowed religious is high. Drug use less so, but the scenario you describe is one I could see happening, sadly. I think they would be sent to the treatment center and likely treated compassionately.

I assume by leaving that you broke the vows you had taken — what’s the religious consequence of this? Do you have to get some special dispensation to participate in church activities like divorced people?

No religious consequences. Once you go through the discernment process with your superior and are sure you want to leave, you write a letter to the superior general of the Jesuits in Rome requesting dismissal, and he writes a letter back dismissing you from vows. It’s not like divorce because taking religious vows isn’t a sacrament

But I am no longer practicing

Sounds like an extremely structured lifestyle. Are you finding yourself lost without it or happier with the freedom?

Happier with freedom

What proportion of clergy do you think are (presumably closeted) gay?

In the Jesuits, it is ok for guys to be “out” at least among fellow brothers. To be out publicly, you have to get permission from the order. In my time, two guys did get permission to publicly come out (in print), and it was a big deal

In my experience I would say the ratio of gay to straight guys in the Jesuits was probably higher than in the population at large, but not gonna hazard a percentage

I hope two questions are ok. First; what made you want to join and how old were you when you joined? Second; you mentioned in another comment that you were given $35 and told not to return for a month, what did you do?

I was old enough. I had been extremely religious my entire life in a very conservative way (brought up that way). I went back to grad school and gradually started to change my way of thinking. Then the Jesuits were appealing because they had a reputation, at least, of being something of an intellectual/progressive order.

During that time I wandered around, explores new places, hitchhiked a little and got rides with strangers, and met a lot of really generous people. It was a great experience

I wanted to become a Jesuit when I was younger. My uncle told me "Don't become a Jesuit; you'll lose your faith." Years later, now a former Catholic and no longer hip to JC, I understand what he meant. I got to a point where I'd learned enough/went so far down the theology rabbithole that I couldn't logically assent to a belief in exclusive monotheism anymore.

Do you think this is common among Jesuits? Like did you meet a lot of other Jesuits who you knew, or at least suspected, had stopped believing but stuck around anyways because, aside from the celibacy, it's a pretty cushy life?

Man, I don't know if I should say this. This might be revealing too much. But when I was a novice, a Jesuit who was soon to be ordained told me (referring to the various stages of Jesuit formation leading to ordination), "In the novitiate, you lose your piety. In First Studies, you lose your mind. In Regency, you lose your respect for the Society. In Theology, you lose your faith. Then they ordain you."

Edit: fixed words

Did you leave and still believe in God or did you go full atheist?

Not full atheist, but not practicing either

Do you find it hard? I lived 22 years with the understanding that God loves me unconditionally. After I couldn't really believe that anymore I've had problems dealing with hard times. Now when things go bad I feel so alone.

In some ways it’s hard, sure. But I much more enjoy the feeling that I have freedom over my life and can come to my own conclusions about things honestly and without fear. And the loneliness makes me value genuine human relationships that much more

How and when did you discover Reddit?

I don’t remember how, actually. But it was probably almost two years ago. I joined right around the time I was making up my mind to leave

And no, it wasn’t Reddit’s fault

Thoughts on the religion itself aside, what are your views on the existence of a higher being after time spent with the Jesuits? Did it make you question the existence of one, or make you more certain than ever there's something out there?

Also, how is your family coping with your change? My mom had a very rough time when I renounced Catholicism and organized religion as a whole, I can only imagine it was a shock for your folks?

My parents did not mind my leaving the Jesuits. We still kind of dance around the “are you going to church question” every time we talk. They haven’t straight out asked me, but I think they suspect I’m not

Do you believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God or the inspired Word God? Also do you believe that the version that exists now to be “faithful” to the meaning of the original texts?

Not really any of the above. I think it’s really great literature (especially the Old Testament) and is highly worth reading. But it is a collection of myths, stories, songs and poems, letters, etc that were collected—and heavily edited— over centuries. Which to me, doesn’t diminish it at all but actually makes it better. In a way, I think now I can actually for the first time give the Bible the respect it’s due.

When you left and became secular did you lose any friends, or did any of your friends think of you differently??

At the time, honestly, most of my friends were fellow brothers. I had some friends at school, but only a handful even knew I was a Jesuit. Most people were surprisingly kind, even if they didn’t know much about it.

It was a lot harder with my former brothers, but I think for most of them it did not come out of nowhere. One of them had a pretty hard time with it and didn’t really speak to me for a while, but we do talk occasionally now. The nice part is that now I only have to talk to the ones that I liked!

To the people who see monks as this mysterious, almost mythical creature, what do you want to tell them?

Hmmm. I mean, they drink beer, they watch Netflix, they follow sports teams. At least Jesuits do. They definitely have personalities, some of them larger than life. They have anxieties and struggles. They still find women (or men, depending on their orientation) attractive. Sometimes they develop crushes.

But it is a weird life. In many ways, really austere (even the Jesuits, comparatively speaking). So does an odd life attract an odd (or at least intense) sort of person? Idk

Did you ever think "this really can't be true" or "this is just wrong" ?

Yes, both

My question is- how are you doing?

Thank you for asking! Hanging in there

Why are there monks? The Catholic church supports them, right? What does the church get from the monks, or accomplish through the monks? What do they do? Sorry if the question seems a little pointed; I don't mean any offense to your former life, I'm just trying to understand what it even is.

The Church just teaches that some people are called in a special way to dedicate themselves to a life of prayer and service. Not all monks and nuns do the same things. There are many different orders. Some are more “contemplative,” like Benedictines and Trappists, others are “active,” I.e., involved in ministry to people. But in each case they will live together in community and do a lot of praying

Thoughts on all the pedophilia?

I mean, it’s sickening, obviously. Heartbreaking. Was one of the reasons I left. Every time I hear a new news story about it, I feel sad, but also feel a little relief to think, “Isn’t my responsibility anymore.”

I’m not sure I have an answer. Some people do argue that the percentage of pedophilic priests isn’t higher than that of the general population. I haven’t done the research and can’t speak to that. Of course, one factor is that (at least back in the day), priests had trusted access to a lot more children than the average person.

And sure, celibacy might be an issue. I did know many guys who I think dealt with their sexuality in mostly pretty healthy ways, but of course the priesthood/religious life can also be attractive to people who just want to hide from their own issues. These days, the religious orders are better about weeding those people out, though it’s not foolproof. And I have serious doubts about whether the regular diocesan seminaries do a good job catching the troubled ones

Edit: a word

You say your study of philosophy helped your decision to leave.

Do you still believe in God according to what you learned, did you modify your beliefs, or have you become an atheist?

If the latter of the options, is there anything you miss about being religious?

I would say I’m non religious, not really an atheist, but I also don’t tend to think that God makes much of a difference. I don’t think the existence of God can be proven or disproven by human reason

Do you think that there’s a discrepancy between the belief system of Catholicism and the institution of the church? And if so, would you say that it’s important for people to recognize that difference?

One of the frustrating things about Catholicism is that that discrepancy is built right into the faith structure. That is, it’s openly admitted that the institution is full of sinful men who do terrible things, and yet at the same time that institution is still supposed to be the door to salvation. I forget who it was, but some theologian once said something like, “A thousand scandals but never a doubt.” Meaning, the Church can fuck up like crazy every day forever, but I still won’t doubt that it’s the thing that gets you saved.

That kind of reasoning feels like spiritual self-flagellation to me

Will you be editing your post to include proof?

I provided confidential proof to the mods, which is one option for posting. They told me they would note that

How hard is it to maintain a law of chastity? How do you keep from masturbating? (I'm struggling with it.)

You’re assuming Jesuits do keep from masturbating. I’m not sure I’d make that assumption.

Good luck, bud

I had a pretty heavy reversion back to the faith, and I hear stories about people who were hardened atheists to avid Protestants (like Scott Hahn) who come to accept the faith as Truth. Since you were engrossed in it and left, you must either see something beyond what those people see or you’re not seeing something, I don’t know which it is.

So why leave, existentially speaking? What was your reason for devoting your life to this and then what changed?

I am familiar with Scott Hann and folks like him. Not sure how honestly you want me to speak. I don’t want to argue someone else out of their faith.