We are Aliya and Austin, journalists who worked for years in the Middle East, including Egypt during the Arab Spring, where we got arrested and then married! Ask us anything!

What is your opinion on the Green Movement in Iran that was ignored (and therefore, lost) around the same time the Arab Spring happened?

I was in Tehran for ten days at the start of that (I wanted to stay longer but my visa wasn't getting renewed, no one's was).

This was in mid 2009, so a year and a half before the Arab Spring. But yes very similar, huge amazing protests, but also huge counter protests.

I am less convinced now than I was at the time that the elections were stolen, and I've written elsewhere that in retrospect I went along a bit with the rest of the press pack on that one. The opposition to Ahmedinejad was big, and passionate, but so was his support base.

Hi guys, thanks for joining us today!

What's the most important thing you feel like more mainstream/traditional media outlets can learn from independent journalists like yourselves?

Hi Cahaseler,

Thanks for your question. Firstly the independent mainstream divide isn't always so clear cut. We've both worked with major league publications. And honestly to us the big difference is between those who are doing the legwork and those who are faking it, and you find both types inside and outside major organisations.

I would say the big problem I perceive with a lot of big media companies is an overemphasis on seniority of staff over proximity to the story. For example, younger Cairo correspondents for major outlets would be pushed aside by brand name boomer reporters who would show up just for big events like elections or whatever. Hope that's helpful!

How much has the United States been involved in influencing elections and revolutions throughout the Arab Spring? Was there a point where American intervention ramped up? From over here it felt like the initial revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia were almost completely populist and spontaneous, but that later revolutions like Libya being more questionable, and places like Syria or Bahrain being completely unknowable to Western readers due to the heavy level of American interest.

The US backed the coup in Egypt, crushing democracy and supporting the dictator, Sisi, who has overseen the most violent period in Egypt's modern history. Libya, Syria and Bahrain all saw legitimate popular uprisings, and if you want to know what went on there you can, it just takes a lot of work to sort the quality work from the bad, something we are trying to make faster with www.writeinstone.com.

There seemed to be a lot of demonization of their elected government because the majority was held by the "Muslim Brotherhood." Do you think a more secular government could have faired any better? Do you think the original election was done well? Since the original uprising was so successful and so relatively bloodless, why hasn't Egypt been able to repeat it?

Yes I think the danger posed by the Muslim Brotherhood was massively overstated. They were no angels, but their basic plan for egypt involved regular free and fair elections. A secular president might have done better, as was the case in Tunisa. It was easier for the military to mobilise allies in washington against an islamist government, however moderate.

Syria did see an a popular uprising at first, but did it not transform into US backed rebellion afterwards?

It became a proxy war, but what the US did is even worse than if they had tried to overthrow Assad. They wanted assad to stay in power, but to be as weakened as possible, so they allowed weapons to flow to the rebels, mostly through third parties, usually gulf countries who favoured the most hardline jihadi groups, but never enough to actually give them a real shot at winning (no MANPADs, especially). It's been a policy of maximum mayhem and suffering so far. Not clear what's coming now. I will add I think the idea of proxy war or conflict between the superpowers in the middle east can be overplayed, Russia and the US compete in Syria, but more often the cooperate. The real aggression is directed at the Arab population itself, who they both agree must be kept powerless. I always think of that line in the poker movie, Rounders, "it's like how you don't see sharks eating each other".

Are there any counties that you think may have an Arab Spring revolution in the coming years?

All of them, potentially!

Hi Aliya and Austin!

First of all, that's an adorable story and must be great when people ask how you met at parties and such.

Thanks for taking the time to do an AMA with us! I'm curious: you mention the influence of foreign, English-speaking journalists on the narrative in Egypt. Is there similar merit to the influence of Egyptian Arabic media in the region? Also, related to the foreign journalists, is there anything an average person can do to avoid falling prey to such biased reporting, short of learning every language and going to local journalists in every part of the world for their news?

Thanks!

Hi Duke_Paul,

Thanks it is a good conversation starter, but we don't go to many parties. We have a toddler now after all.

Not sure what the question is about the "merit" of the Egyptian Arabic Media exactly. Did some/most of them get it wrong? Yes. More or less than the english language press? I wouldn't want to try and guess.

regarding your last question about what the average person can do to differentiate the solidly researched work from the flaky/biased, there's actually very little, short of, as you say, becoming an expert and learning the language yourself. That's what we're trying to change with our app, which you can check out at www.writeinstone.com, idea is to get good journalists on board showing off the work they do behind each story. As a news consumer you could tell journalists that's the kind of thing that would earn your trust!

Thanks! Regarding the Egypt question--I had heard that Egyptian news has an outsized influence in the region as a result of widespread Egyptian Arabic films and television. It seemed like a parallel to the, 'English-language reporters got it wrong but perpetuated a particular narrative,' and I was wondering if the same could be said in the Middle East about Egyptian-Arabic reporting--they may get things wrong but end up establishing the narrative for other stories in the region anyway.

Probably the gulf countries, especially their governments, have more influence on the narrative, since they boss the Egyptian government round, and the Egyptian government bosses the Egyptian media around.

Yes that's kind of true, but they are controlled by the Egyptian government, and the messaging comes out of there and out of the gulf states.

What is the most unsafe Middle Eastern country for journalists today?

A google search result may give you a more accurate ranking, and there would be different ways to count. Probably Yemen right now, like literally this week. Not sure. It ranges from appalling to pretty bad basically everywhere except tunisia and lebanon where it's kinda ok.

Following the news of Viktoria Marinova, the Bulgarian journalist who was beaten and raped so badly her body was unrecognizable, and Khashoggi's death in Saudi Arabia - Is this something you've found journalists, especially those in politics, are often aware and cautious of? How do journalists cope with that fear of safety for self/family? How frequently do things like this happen?

I had a friend, or acquaintance at least, Syed Saleem Shahzad, who was killed in 2011. He was a hero of mine. He was totally fearless. I don't know how others deal with it. I am not sure people do.

Stuff like this is happening more and more in recent years, too.

Ah, do you think it's actually happening more or just being reported more? I wasn't sure if I was just noticing all the stories more because I'm getting older and reading the news more.

Do journalists tend to try to hide behind false names/maintain a level of anonymity? It seems like such an impossible place to be in, between wanting recognition for your work and building a brand as a journalist, and safety. Incredibly sorry to hear about your friend.

Here's what I found: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/01/2017-was-the-most-dangerous-year-ever-for-journalists-2018-might-be-even-worse/?utm_term=.8dd104d17303

Here's how I found it: https://portal.writeinstone.com/#/762/Is-it-getting-more-dangerous-to-be-a-journalist?

Hi Aliya and Austin,

With Hezbollah’s recent activity in Southern Lebanon, as well as the rising tensions between Israel and Iran, do you believe there is a Third Lebanese War on the horizon? 2006 didn’t seem to really solve any of the problems between Israel and Lebanon, do you think a third spat would have a different result?

Thanks for doing this AMA!

I actually began my career in south lebanon during the 2006 war. I had just been there on student exchange, and I can tell you this, whatever they say now, no one seriously predicted that conflict. If anything tensions have been higher since, but those tensions are also being played out elsewhere, for example in Syria itself, or in yemen. I have actually been expecting lebanon to fall into much more severe crisis as the war in Syria dragged on than it has, which indicates a strong intereston both sides of the geo-political divide in keeping it reasonably functional...

As someone studying journalism and looking to get into more meaningful, impactful storytelling, how did you guys ascend to being able to cover war and harsh stories in the Middle East? I don't know what either of you look like, but is it hard to cover if you're of whiter, European complexion? (I am Argentine-Italian from San Francisco Bay Area, USA, but study Documentary at the Missouri School of Journalism. I'm interested in doing longform/microdoc-style stories in this region eventually)

Aliya (who went to sleep a while ago) is from Egypt and so always worked there, though I guess you could ask her how she got so well connected with foreign outlets.

My story is odd, I was on student exchange in Lebanon in 2006 when the war broke out, and then I started a blog and a few posts got printed in a newspaper, including on the front page.

I was doing a philosophy degree at the time and so journalism was actually the economically more viable career choice, or seemed to be. And so I came home and had a really hard time finding work in the Australian press, and had to go back overseas to Iran, where suddenly I would get calls from cable news channels (through an agency I connected with through a guy I knew from a language class in Beirut) But even with luck in terms of being in the right time at the right place on a few occasions, and family support that helped me through lean times, it wasn't a huge economic success for me. Hopefully software will be kinder, and hopefully our tool (www.writeinstone.com) can make a difference to the economics of the industry for other journalists.

Thank you! I plan to check out Stone and see how hopefully I can utilize it as a multimedia journalist myself

Awesome. If you need any help hit me up here or on Austin at writeinstone dot com! We love feedback positive or negative.

With the change in age an education in the last 30 years around the arab world, would you say a new arab spring is almost inevitable? If not , what do you think us the biggest hurdle to overcome?

Well repression, especially when it is commited too and there are no limits on the brutality you can get away with, is really effective! That's what all those educated young people are up against. So a lot depends on the political climate in the west.

What are your thoughts on the tendency of the American media to focus on the narrative that creates the most outrage and divisiveness rather than presenting the facts in as unbiased and nonsensational manner possible? Is it possible that mainstream media will ever move away from a business model that promotes this behaviour?

This is what we are trying to do with writeinstone.com, move the business model away from the related behaviours of hyperpartisanism and low-research journalism (aka churnalism). If you don't want to invest the time to check facts and find out new information, the best way to make original (just) content is to take a story from one of the big outlets (or wherever, who cares), throw a hyper partisan headline on it, and get it published fast before the discussion moves on. We're trying to change journalism methodology in a way that drives eyeballs towards original thorough well researched work... and knowing the subject matter always makes people more sophisticated and less blatantly partisan.

Thanks for the response. I think your concept is an interesting one, but I'm not sure I buy the notion that it will change the current paradigm. We got here because journalistic integrity has been displaced by the need for revenue and growth that made low effort content the rule instead of the exception. Do you believe the public at large is demanding a return to journalistic integrity? Seems they are more concerned with latching on to any news source that confirms what they already believe to be true, regardless of the evidence. Then again, I might have it all wrong!

Not saying news consumers are angels, but there are people out there, like you I assume, who are really interested in what's going on and who they should believe about it. Our tool gives them a way to get closer to the process before they make their mind up. In terms of outlets and revenue, well yes they need to survive and it's not easy! but we're trying to help. With our tool they can create cheap fast original and informative video content to go along with every article, with minimal changes to existing workflows. Video content is the most lucrative kind. You might notice sometimes news websites will have a headline and a story that match, but inbetween them, above the bulk of the text there will be a video that only tangentally connects at best? Well they shoehorn it in there because they need that pre-roll advertising money. Our system turns the research work premium journalists are already doing into a form of original relevant video content, so they make more money from the same work.

Thanks for explaining that. I now see your point on changing the behaviour without changing the model. Best of luck to you both!

Thanks!

Definitely really actually going to sleep now. It's been great! Will be back to follow up ASAP.

Hey guys going to pack it in for the night, coming up to 3:30 am here (in Australia). Thanks everyone for your questions. I will try and answer any new threads I find here in the morning.

How cruel of them to arrest and marry you. How is it holding up? ;)

I have a witty response for this but I already used it up on the first person to make that joke. Sorry.

How do you feel about western museums keeping artifacts of historical significance to Egypt?

Do you think they should be returned immediately or is there an arrangement that can be met by both parties?

I think both Egyptian self determination, and historic artefacts should be returned to Egypt, and probably in that order.

Why does everyone hate the Kurds so much?

Seriously. Is it just that they want to be their own country, or do they have a mafia, or what?

I am not sure the Kurds are particularly hated. They are particularly stateless. That leads to conflict.

Oh. They just casually get gassed by Saddam and oppressed by the Turks. Got it.

Sorry what point are you making? Their statelessness and the violence you describe are related.

What are your favorite Dinosaur(s)?

Classic 90s T-Rex on a pure Newman diet. The Air Jordans of Giant lizards. No bullshit.

What is your take of the internal Palestinian conflict? What's the scenario for the days after Abu-Mazen?

I am sorry I will have to leave this to people who are more up to date on Palestine. It's an area I've never really developed my knowledge in as much as others simply because there are so many well informed people writing about it already.

What was the weather like when you got arrested?

What was the weather like when you got married?

Arrest: Cold and dry, like end of winter (February). I was glad I had a heavy coat and scarf when we got taken.

A bit warmer and more humid, but not hot, autumn like (November).

Do you think the Arab Spring could have had more ultimate success in changing the governing structures of the middle East if the activists had gotten more open US support?

Am I overestimating US power in the region and over the regimes it allies itself with? How much blame do you think the Obama administration should receive in the eyes of history for what's become of Egypt under Sisi?

The Obama administration bears total 100% responsibility for the 2013 coup in Egypt, which is what killed the Arab Spring. They fund and train and generally sugar_daddy the Egyptian military. They could have used that leverage to a) keep the first elected government in power and b) kept them having elections, respecting women's rights etc. Instead they (John Kerry especially) shut the whole thing down. It's an unpopular opinion amongst my lefty millennial friends but Hillary Clinton was doing an amazing job as secretary of state, and seems to have been the reason it ever worked for a second. Once she was out (and Kerry was in) the whole tide turned. Obama didn't have the force of his convictions to stand up to bad impulses in the US foreign policy community.

What did you think of the movie Wiskey Tango Foxtrot? Are there any similar stories you have?

I haven't seen that movie, so can't comment.

Do you think any place in the middle east could pivot to a successful single party parliamentary republic (like Singapore, for example) since western style democracy seems to be an ill fit, culturally speaking?

That's a potential outcome, but I don't see any particular candidates. Maybe one of the gulf states.

I don't think middle eastern countries face cultural barriers to democracy (maybe to liberalism). But the Muslim Brotherhood, for example, the biggest political/social movement in Egypt says Islam and democracy are compatible, and that would be a accepted by a majority based on the polling I've seen.

Thanks! The rhetoric here in America pushes the idea that all muslims want sharia law, not democracy. But there's a lot of incorrect cultural information here, to be sure.

Your job can sometimes be thankless, so let me say thank you for what you do!

Well it's not so simple as one or the other. The polling I was talking about (which I discussed here: https://youtu.be/riN5EswZX0E ) found, for example, that 80% of Egyptians support democracy, and on the same survey 80% of Egyptians support sharia law. So 60%, at least, want both, believing as the brotherhood says, that the two are compatible, or some seeking sone compromise. This makes sense. If you think about people you know, do they have ideological consistency? Or do they middle through with reference to various conflicting value sets?

Marriage seems like an awfully tough penalty for getting arrested. How is it working out?

Pretty well. I got her pregnant and now she's stuck with me.

Hi, thank you for doing this AMA

Do you think there is a chance the Arab Spring was deliberately orchestrated by say “The West”as a means of regime change in the Middle East/Arab world ? I have heard some people that may believe that but I’m not so sure

No the Arab Spring was deliberately suppressed by the west, which is partner to all the dictatorships.

Co

How was prison?

We were moved around a lot, then out after two and a bit days. The main issue was but longest stretch was in some holding cells under the Mahalla police station, I think. They actually put men and our friend Derek in a big communal cell normally used for women, but which was empty so we had lots of space but no lights except a small window. They didn't feed us for 56 hours was the worst thing I guess, actually that was second worst. The worst is not knowing when/whether you're getting out. Indefinite detention is torture.

We were, though, incredibly lucky compared to others especially people arrested before the revolution or since the coup.

One more question, How was the food.

In prison? They didn't feed us till the just before the trial and that was random fast food from outside.

How did you two get into that line of work?

I was on student exchange in Lebanon when the 2006 war broke out.

What do you think about Wikipedia?

What issues need better coverage?

Do you think Wikipedia does a good job of sourcing information from high quality sources?

I like Wikipedia. I think it is a huge achievment. I also think Wikitribune is a worthwhile idea. Don't know if it will work though.

In terms of coverage, basically everything could be covered better. Probably the horse-race coverage of politics, as opposed to a policy based discussion, if you know what I mean.

I think Wikipedia does the best job of sourcing information at such a large scale. Professional efforts are far better at targetted information gathering on a particular topic.

What do you think about the current state of journalist freedom in the Middle East generally speaking?

If you think it's bad, how do you think the international community can help free it?

It's terrible and getting worse. The only way to really reverse the trend is to force the authoritarian regimes (which depend to a large extent on the backing of foreign powers) into democratic transitions.

Is she hot?

As balls.