We are Jon Steinman, a democracy advocate, and Jon Leland, a VP at Kickstarter, and we’re campaigning for the 4 Day Week. Ask Us Anything about the benefits a 4 Day Week will deliver to people, organizations, communities, our country, and our envi...

Do you mean a 32hr week? And how would pay be adjusted? Because most people I know couldn't afford to live a 4 day week on their current pay. Wouldn't businesses that have to be open 7 days a week need to hire more employees? How would you sell this idea to them?

JL: Yes, we mean a 32 hour week. The “4 Day Week” name is really a catchy shorthand for reducing work hours.

Because a significant percentage of employers could implement this without reducing productivity (and many see increased productivity), there shouldn’t be any reduction in pay. Not all businesses operate in a way that’s as easy to shift to a reduced working hours schedule while maintaining pay, but there are examples of companies in the restaurant industry, manufacturing, and construction doing it. For employers operating 7 days a week, we would say that it might make sense to start with a slightly reduced working hours schedule and see how that impacts productivity through things like better rest, employee retention, and employee engagement.

Does advocating for a 4 day work week apply to blue collar jobs such as factory/mill/ retail workers? All I have seen is white collar/ office jobs.

JS: When the original weekend was created, it was factory/mill workers who were the first beneficiaries. This was because companies like Ford and Kelloggs helped lead the way. Within a decade, the federal government made it standard, and everyone eventually benefited. This time around, it is easier for white collar workers to pilot the switch initially. But it’s not impossible for those in factories or in restaurants. And we’re already seeing that service-sector jobs that pay slightly higher wages, or offer more time off, are having a much easier time recruiting qualified workers. Workers now understand their value, and more time off -- without a loss of salary -- is one way for them to be better compensated. Eventually, we’ll need government policies that help insure everyone benefits. This may require raising minimum wages, making health care independent of employment, and supporting businesses as they transition.

You mention studies without linking to papers. Any results you can share?

JS: There is a growing body of research on the topic, and we’re working with academics at Harvard, Oxford, Boston College, and elsewhere to study the pilot 4 Day Week efforts and help get even deeper data. Some of the research is collected on our partner’s website here: https://www.4dayweek.com/research . As well, Nicholas Ashford at MIT’s Sloan School has done a number of papers examining European examples, a couple linked below:

https://www.europeanfinancialreview.com/a-four-day-workweek-a-policy-for-improving-employment-and-environmental-conditions-in-europe/ https://ashford.mit.edu/sites/default/files/documents/G86.%20Kallis%20et%20al.,%20Sustainability%202013,%205,%201545-1567%20pdf.pdf

We need more research to better understand all of the benefits of giving people another day off, as well as the challenges of implementation. But the benefits of moving to the original weekend nearly a century ago were spectacular, to individuals, to families, communities and our country.

What's the mechanism where working fewer hours would result in higher productivity?

JL: The primary mechanisms are rest, working smarter, and being a better place to work.

Better rested employees are a lot more efficient than tired employees. This cuts across virtually all types of jobs and we know we are a sleep deprived nation.

Employers that implement four day work weeks and wind up seeing higher productivity involve their employees in finding ways to work smarter and cut a lot of the fat out of the working week. Most people can point to aspects of their work that are inefficient and take up far too much time. Trim meetings, optimize processes, and focus on what’s actually important.

Finally, companies that implement four day weeks see less employer turnover, faster times to hire, and fewer sickdays. Those benefits alone have a tremendous positive impact on an organization’s productivity.

It doesn't really work. People simply do lower quality work after a period of time.

There's simply no way I could perform as much in my job in 4 days. It's not possible. Adding another person would be horribly inefficient, the work isn't divisible.

In other businesses you could do it,by adding staff. Well more staff is much more expensive, there's a baseline overhead for each employee. So costs increase, which means either pay needs to compensate, or product cost does.

JS: This is a common response -- people say it will work for others but not for them and their organization. But if everyone else is working 4 Days, it's easier to conceive. We all have to work to make this happen for all of us.

Is this really possible? I’d like to believe, but have a hard time accepting that the powers that be will go along with it.

JS: This was almost exactly the response to the idea of the original weekend roughly a century ago. There were those who said it would be impossible to achieve, and many business leaders who argued it would bankrupt and impoverish America. Instead, it helped spark the American economic engine that would power unprecedented growth, create a thriving middle class, give birth to entire new economies of leisure and recreation, and pace the entire world. It required some forward thinking organizations, business leaders, and, eventually, the support of the federal government -- but it was absolutely possible then and it’s absolutely possible now.

Currently working a rotating 12hr 3 days on, 3 days off, 3 nights, 3 off, repeat, they do it to save on overtime. How would this be implemented for a shift schedule of 4 shifts for 24/7 coverage?

JS: Implementation challenges are actually best solved by the employees. Our partners at 4 Day Week Global implemented the 4 Day Week at their insurance company, and engaged each division to establish its own plan for making the transition. When employees designed the transition -- established their own goals and metrics to ensure the work would get done and get done well -- they were even more bought into the effort. There won’t be an easy one-size-fits-all solution at the start, but engaging the issue, organization by organization, is how we start moving forward.

For salaried employees, would a 4 day work week mean they get paid 80% of their current salary? Or would salaries stay the same? What happened in the past when weekends became a thing?

JS: Ideally, the pay stays the same. This is part of how the benefits are unlocked -- creating happy, healthy, respected employees who are fully engaged in their work while at work. If people are paid less, the 4 Day Week starts looking punitive for too many Americans. When the transition was made to the original weekend, Henry Ford raised salaries. He was savvy enough to know that he needed his own employees to be able to afford his cars -- it couldn’t just be for the rich. And the same is true here: the 4 Day Week must benefit everybody.

There are currently cities in Utah that operate on a 4 Day Week -- where many employees work 4 days for 10 hours each. That’s not an ideal implementation, but it’s shown to make people happier to have an added day off, even if they’re not actually working less.

But to be clear, this is about giving people more of their own time back to them to do with as they please. If that means napping more, great. If it means spending more time with your family, fantastic.

The way the economy currently works, all manner of assets are accruing mostly to the ultra-wealthy: money, real estate, equities, and even time. Time is an asset like all others, and too many Americans don’t have enough of it. It’s time for everyone to get more of their own time back.

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JL: The transition over this last year to virtual work has really opened the door for this issue for a lot of employers. Companies had to learn the lesson that it’s the output that matters, not the hours.

Our recommendation is to first gather some support for this internally (http://action.4dayweek.com) sign up for our campaign and we will show you support at your workplace for a four day week. From there, approach your head of operations or HR in a constructive way about there being interest in this at the company and wanting to see whether this is something that could benefit both the company and the people who work there (including leadership!). There is a ton of evidence to show that companies, particularly those that allow for virtual work, can maintain or increase productivity with a four day week. Given how transformative it would be for everyone if you could make the switch, why not experiment with a pilot?

Our partner organization, the 4 Day Week Global Foundation will be hosting a joint pilot in 2022 and offering participating employers free guidance and support. Kickstarter has already announced that they will participate and it’s a great opportunity to provide your organization with a concrete timeline to try it out while minimizing any risk.

How to you see this being implemented? Will labor laws change, or is it more of a cultural development? Why do you think this could happen?

I don’t see companies just doing things for employees without concrete benefits. So more productive, will shareholders actually buy that? What’s the metric of productivity? Will there be a decrease in pay?

I really like the idea I’m just skeptical it could take hold without serious consequences to employees

JS: Eventually, policy supports will likely be required, just as they were when the 40 hour workweek was standardized. This may prompt an increase in innovation at the state level -- currently 26 states have job sharing programs -- and a shift in the way incentives are given to industry. Keep in mind that about $90 billion is spent annually by states and localities alone on financial incentives to private businesses; at the federal level, the fossil fuel industry alone receives nearly $20 billion in incentives per year.

Our policies and our budgets are value statements. Our country is saying we value these things and therefore we’re investing in them.

It’s time to reorient our values around people, around communities, the environment, and our democracy -- and the 4 Day Week offers is a key part of that shift, and one that doesn’t require loss of productivity.

How can I help this effort?

Visit our campaign page and sign up, tell your friends -- the more people we sign up, the more potential organizations we can get into our pilot.

http://action.4DayWeek.com

Get involved!

Are there any companies that have already implemented this?

JL: In the US, there are a small but growing number of companies that have implemented a four day week. Uncharted, Buffer, and Aloha Restaurants have already made the switch. Unilever is piloting it across their entire New Zealand operations this year ahead of a potential larger implementation. Kickstarter just announced that they would pilot it next year. There’s movement, but we want to recruit more employers to try it, which is why we’re looking for people to sign onto our campaign (http://action.4dayweek.com). The more signatures we get, the more employers we can recruit.

I read an article recently that the Japanese government is also exploring this idea, but the "culture of work" fostered into daily life means it will be more in theory than in practice. Do you see similar hurdles here in the US, and how would you address this?

JS: This is as much a cultural challenge as an economic or organizational one. Nearly everyone supports the idea of transitioning to a longer weekend -- and can understand the benefits personally as well as from the historical data -- but skepticism is the main challenge. People think it will be too hard, or it won’t work for everyone, or that it will harm the economy or America’s standing in the world. All of these concerns were lodged 100 years ago when the original weekend was proposed -- and they were all proven wrong. When people have more time off, they’re happier, healthier, more engaged in their work, families, and communities; our environment benefits; and our democracy will as well.

It will take time, and commitment, to get this done. But it’s a task worth doing, that will pay benefits to all of us for generations.

How does a 4 day work week impact spending habits? I would be under the assumption that this would be better for the economy as people would have more time to go out and spend money on things they enjoy.

JS: They may spend more on recreation and leisure, but studies indicate overall consumption and emissions will go down. Moving to a 4 Day week has significant environmental benefits even as it modulates how money moves through the economy. (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/may/27/four-day-working-week-would-slash-uk-carbon-footprint-report)

If we have a 32 hour work week as full time - would this assist the minimum wage issue?

JL: It potentially supports the argument for an increase in the minimum wage in two ways.

(1) It shifts the standard by which we calculate the minimum wage as an annual salary. Though, frankly, the minimum wage is so low already that it’s already shocking to consider as annual salary. The federal minimum wage is $7.25/hour - that’s a $15,000 annual salary working 40 hours a week and only $12,000 if we believe people should be expected to work only 32 hours a week to support themselves.

(2) Both arguments are grounded in concerns about how we construct work to be more equitable and human. By mobilizing salaried workers to push for standardizing a four day workweek, we can draw a connection to the argument for increasing the minimum wage. The challenge is that we can make progress on a four day week without political pressure and a minimum wage increase, which has popular support, is at the mercy of our political institutions.

You meant 4 day work week, right?

YES!

What is the best way to convince a company to implement a 4 day work week?

JL: The transition over this last year to virtual work has really opened the door for this issue for a lot of employers. Companies had to learn the lesson that it’s the output that matters, not the hours.

Our recommendation is to first gather some support for this internally (http://action.4dayweek.com) sign up for our campaign and we will show you support at your workplace for a four day week. From there, approach your head of operations or HR in a constructive way about there being interest in this at the company and wanting to see whether this is something that could benefit both the company and the people who work there (including leadership!). There is a ton of evidence to show that companies, particularly those that allow for virtual work, can maintain or increase productivity with a four day week. Given how transformative it would be for everyone if you could make the switch, why not experiment with a pilot?

Our partner organization, the 4 Day Week Global Foundation will be hosting a joint pilot in 2022 and offering participating employers free guidance and support. Kickstarter has already announced that they will participate and it’s a great opportunity to provide your organization with a concrete timeline to try it out while minimizing any risk.