IamA miller on a Dutch windmill, AMA!

Is there such a thing as too much wind for a windmill?

While this differs a bit for each type of windmill, there indeed is a point at which the mill has to be stopped to prevent damage.

For Dutch cornmills, the maximum sailspeed (depending on their transmission which ranges from 1:5 to 1:8) is about 20 rpm or as millers say: '80 sails'. If the mill starts turning faster it becomes harder to produce good quality flour.

Drainage mills on the other hand can often turn as fast as their structure allows, sometimes reaching 30 rpm or 120 sails. The main risk from such high speeds is the friction generated by the brake (visible in the proof picture as the wooden blocks pressed against the wheel) when stopping the mill. Sometimes this friction generates so much heat that fire becomes a risk. Many mills have burned down in the past because of this.

To regulate the rpm of the mill, a miller can adjust the amount of cloth covering the sails by reefing or unfurling, much like on a sailboat.

windmill with '4 full sails'

Windmill with '4 half sails'

Needless to say a good understanding of the weather is important to a miller.

So I assume it's called "80 sails" at 20 rpm because there are 4 sails and the easiest way to see how fast it's going is to sit on the roof and count how many sails go by in a minute?

:edit: [5]

So I assume it's called "80 sails" at 20 rpm because there are 4 sails and the easiest way to see how fast it's going is to count how many sails go by in a minute?

Exactly, on a cornmill where the speed of the mill really matters, the miller often stands inside sampling the product while looking outside counting the number of sails going by.

Typical day in the life of a miller? Biggest difference from life beforehand?

On the days I work on the mill I realize I work with all my senses instead of just my eyes when working on a pc.

Early morning I hop on my bike and on my way to the mill I start looking at the weather, trying to figure out what kind of cloth I shall carry on its sails, and if there is enough wind to do certain tasks. After preparing the mill for work the sound a mill produces is important to check if the mill is working properly and can indicate failures early on.

Because the mill has a central position in the village I myself have grown as a member of the community, people recognize me now as 'the lady of the windmill' which to me is very fulfilling compared to my faceless deskjob. I also love showing around visitors if I can spare the time and help them experience the mill a bit by allowing them to stop the mill using a series of ropes and levers and perhaps take a tour through it's cap. Now and then I receive technical personell such as aircraft mechanics who are amazed by how much thought out down to the details this seemingly primitive machinery is.

Is milling largely gender influenced? And in your case is it a family trade?

In the lower parts of The Netherlands where the drainage mills stood, milling was historically seen as a woman's profession. The reason for this was that a family couldn't make ends meet from the salary the water board gave a miller, so the husband often went out fishing or worked for a farmer while the wife tended to the mill.

In the higher parts of The Netherlands, A corn mill often stood a couple hundred yards from the village not to be hindered by structures for catching wind. It was often accompanied with an inn providing lodging to travellers. In such a situation the husband often took care of the mill, while the wife ran the inn. A village's appearance was often dominated by the churchtower and the windmill, which also signified a cultural divide. The church was God's place, while the windmill -far away from the church's reach- symbolized earthly needs and pleasures. This is why the mill was often accompanied by an inn which also served as a brothel and casino.

What are the most common misconceptions about windmills you hear regularly?

I think the most common misconception is that a windmill would be an archaic, primitive machine.

People tend to forget that windmills have underwent an evolution of half a millennium driven by trial and error as well as knowledge of materials. For some reason that escapes me many also think of people from the past as 'stupid' or 'less intelligent'.

Whenever I suspect such a sentiment from a visitor I try to point out the clever details in its construction such as for example the fact that 2 gears that are connected to each other never have a number of cogs that can be cleanly divided. This is done to prevent uneven wear and tear, the same principle is found in modern day gearboxes.

Got to visit a windmill near Schagen once (filming for a local project), had a nice converesation with the miller. He told me that whenever they need to pump more water than the electrical pumps can handle they just use the windmills as they displace a far higher amount of water.

He told me that whenever they need to pump more water than the electrical pumps can handle they just use the windmills as they displace a far higher amount of water.

This is actually true. Because wind is unreliable, drainage mills have a vast overcapacity so they can easily drain the lend in the time the wind is sufficient.

An electrical pump can work night and day without interruption so it has a much lower continuous capacity.

I am a physics teacher in an American high school. I would love to have my class do a Facetime chat with you when we get to rotational motion. Would that be something you would be willing to do?

I would love to provide you with information, but I'm afraid a live feed may be difficult

Thanks for answering the questions! I always wonder who works at those mills when I bike past them. I have a bunch of questions :)

Do you get paid? What is the average salary for the position? I noticed you said that the mill is run by volunteers. Are there commercial ones as well?

What are the most interesting mills in Netherlands to go visit on Open Molendag?

How often the cloth get replaced? Is it a special fabric?

Do you get paid? What is the average salary for the position? I noticed you said that the mill is run by volunteers. Are there commercial ones as well?

As of the moment it is just a volunteer job I have next to my regular job, but I certainly won't refuse a joboffer as a miller should the opportunity arise.

What are the most interesting mills in Netherlands to go visit on Open Molendag?

That is a difficult one. I'd say the mills in Leiden as the city has many different types closeby that are maintained by an enthusiastic group of volunteers.

Otherwise the Zaanse Schans is a great place, but the downside is that it is often flooded by tourists.

I just got back from Belgium and The Netherlands about a month ago and Zaanse Schans was fun to see but definitely a tourist trap. It reminded me of the Branson theme park Silver Dollar City. Still nice to see working mills. I bought some Himalayian Sea Salt made at a spice mill that is amazing.

Edit: it's not himalayan "sea" salt just himalayan salt. My bad. It was a mistake, there is no sea in the himalayas. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalayan_salt

The curious thing about the Schans is that it was never meant for tourists. Originally it was a local effort to preserve a typical neighbourhood where people lived and worked around the same place. The tourists flocked to it later on, much to the dismay of the people still actually living there.

Are mice a big problem in the milling industry?

Because we are subject to modern regulations for food producing companies on the cornmill, we keep it very clean. I haven't seen a mouse in years and the traps also stay empty. That being said, during summer we do have issues with wheat weevils: very tiny insects that borrow in grain kernels. To combat them we keep our grain storage to a minimum in summer and religiously clean the mill after each day of grinding.

So if you saw a mouse, what you do?

I'd set traps and look out for possible food sources that could have attracted the mouse. That being said, we'd never use poison.

Admittedly this was a failed attempt to get you to sing Windmill from old Amsterdam on reddit. I don't know why you would suddenly start typing about mice. I tried.

Oooh right! But like /u/RPofkins already remarked, the song is fairly unknown by Dutch people, much like the story of the boy who plugs his finger in the dike.

that dyke fingering story was popularised by an american who never even visited our country.

Plugging a leak with your finger wouldn't even work cause the dyke would be saturated, they're mostly made of earth so it's not like there'd be a single leaky hole.

(and yes I do see the potential puns)

and yes I do see the potential puns

And I'm happy you made them :-D

What is the history of your windmill?

The mill I work on most these days does'nt have a spectacular history. It was build mid-18th century as a smock mill to replace an ageing, more primitive post mill dating back from the early 16th century. Mid-19th century when the expanding village started interfering with the wind, the mill was placed on a stone tower well above to roofs of most houses at the time. It finally stopped professionally working in the 50's when machine power proved to be more economical and dependable than wind-power. After a few decades of neglect it was restored again and loaned to volunteers to work on. This wasn't done purely with historical heritage in mind. A working mill requires less maintenance than one that is regularly put to work and it adds a certain charm to the village which is partly driven by tourism.

Thank you.

To some of us in the new world, mid-18th century is older than every standing structure in our state, and rather impressive.

That reminds me of an American couple that visited the mill I was working on at the time. It was a 17th century post mill constructed from parts of even older mills. The woman complained about how 'rickety' the mill felt (post-mills wobble a bit when turning, much like a ship on the waves).

The only thing I could say was: "Ma'am, this mill is older than your country is."

Is it actually possible for (the inner workings of) a windmill to catch fire from friction in a storm or is that a myth?

Is miller a realistic profession/job to aim for these days?

It is very possible for a mill to catch fire by braking. This is somewhat mended by applying a steel rim on the brakewheel to eliminate wood-on-wood friction, but it still happens. Here is an example caught on film: klikski

Do you prefer Pindakaas or Chocopasta on your bread?

Een rechtgeaarde Hollander gaat voor Pindakaas.

While driving through Europe I noticed a distinct difference between the Dutch windmills and the French ones, namely that the Dutch windmills seem to be two structures on top of each other (they look as if there is a barn standing on top of a house), whereas in France they are just a tall tower with the sails on top. Do you know why this is? I assume the Dutch ones are like that so that there is some form of suspension that doesn't affect the lower structure, but I could be way off.

That is a good observation, but the conclusion is a bit off. The answer lies in the structural history of windmills.

The first windmills are somewhat of a mystery. Depending on what historian you believe it is apparently invented somewhere in Flanders, Coastal France or England. The first hard textual evidence we have of windmills date from 1180 in Normandy, 1181 in England and 1191 in Flanders. All these texts mention already existing windmills.

What these windmills looked like is a matter of debate. The majority of historians agree they must be primitive versions of the post mill that still exists as a type today. The main problem with the wind in Western Europe is that it blows from different directions. The medieval solution to this was to place the mill on a central post on which it could be turned into the wind. There are few historians and millers who believe the early postmill was essentially a vertical watermill placed on a pole with the wheel swapped for sails. Although it would be a logical progression, there is no evidence for it save a 17th century sketch.

Originally these mills were quite small, and the post and crossplates were buried in the ground to prevent them from being blown over. The remains of buried crossplates have been found all over England and Flanders This subtype has the name 'sunk postmill'. Over the course of centuries this mill evolved -including a few critical changes improving its stability- into the full scale postmill in the mid-15th century that is completely above the ground. As a miller I'm still impressed with the amount of craftsmanship people had to build such a structure. Despite its rickety appearance, this final form of postmill is actually very stable. Many of them have survived for over 400 years.

In The Netherlands people had increasingly more difficulty keeping their land dry. Originally water was drained from the land by building dams they opened at low tide, allowing the water flow out to sea, and closing them at high tide, preventing the water to flow back in. Eventually the land has lowered so much mechanical pumps were needed to drain the water. In the 15th century this resulted in a modified version of the postmill called a 'Hollow Postmill'

Besides the wooden postmill, there is also the stone towermill. This particular type of mill is recorded not long after the first appearance of the postmill, in the 13th century. They originally were cylindrical buildings with very thick brickwork and a pointy tower cap. The towermill at Zeddam is a well preserved example. In medieval times they were nowhere nearly as popular as the postmill though for several reasons:

1) They were extremely expensive to make,

2) They could only drive one pair of stones where a postmill commonly had 2 or even 3

3) They required 2 millers to wind the cap where a postmill could be operated with 1.

On top of that, their heavy construction was unfit for the weak, peaty ground found in the lower parts of The Netherlands.

As a result you see these medieval type towermills mostly in regions that were plagued with wars (a postmill would be too vulnerable) such as the nowadays border regions between Germany, The Netherlands and France, or at places where efficiency was less important, such as rural France and Spain

Fast forward to the late-16th century with the invention of a less labor intensive method of winding, the invention of the 'main shaft'(allowing the mill to drive more than 1 pair of stones) and advancements in brickwork suddenly made the modernized towermill viable and they started to out compete postmills.

When stone was too heavy or expensive, a wooden octagonal structure was used, resulting in the smockmill

With the appearance of these modernized towermills and smockmills there suddenly was a lot of room for machinery and various transmissions which allowed people to use a mill for other functions than just grinding grain or pumping water. It was in the 17th century people started using mills for sawing wood, making paper, grinding spices, making paint and oil.

This is the AMA I didn't realize I wanted until now.

Seeing as it's one of the things I think of when I think of The Netherlands, why are Mills such a huge part of Dutch life (and/or history)?

Seeing as it's one of the things I think of when I think of The Netherlands, why are Mills such a huge part of Dutch life (and/or history)?

Most of Europe relied on water to power their machines. But because The Netherlands and Flanders is (as the name suggests) is a flat country with little fast flowing water nearly all available power from streams and rivers was used for watermills as early as the 11th century so other sources of power were sought.

This logically resulted in the first windmills, which are somewhat of a mystery. Depending on what historian you believe it is apparently invented somewhere in Flanders, Coastal France or England. The first hard textual evidence we have of windmills date from 1180 in Normandy, 1181 in England and 1191 in Flanders. All these texts mention already existing windmills.

Over the course of centuries the Dutch developed the windmill as an increasingly efficient machine and found a wide range of purposes such as draining lakes to reclaim land for farming or to power world's first industrial complex at The Zaanse Schans.

can adjust the amount of cloth covering the sails by reefing or unfurling, much like on a sailboat.

I don't know much about mills or sailing, how do you actually do this? Do you have to stop the mill first, or can it be done while the sails are in motion?

Are different speeds needed for different grains, and what grains do you mill, is it only corn and wheat or are there others like spelt as well?

Edit: looked up an answer to one of my questions

I don't know much about mills or sailing, how do you actually do this? Do you have to stop the mill first, or can it be done while the sails are in motion?

With common sails (also called Old Dutch), we must indeed stop the mill first so we can reef or unfurl the sails.

Because this method is rather labour intensive and decreases actual production time, other sail systems have been invented that allow the sail surface to be changed without stopping the mill or even automatically. The most well known example are the patent sails, where the cloth is replaced by automatically operated slats.

What's the difference between a flour mill & a drainage mill?

A corn mill is used as its name suggests to grind grains. A drainage mill is used in The Netherlands to drain lakes or even parts of the sea as to reclaim land for farming. The Kinderdijk is a well known hydrological complex that still uses windpower as a primary means to keep the farmland from flooding.

This is one of the most fascinating AMA's I've read. Thank you for your time. My question is: Is it dangerous inside the windmill? Are all of the working parts of the machine exposed? Thanks again!

On a grain mill most machinery is out of reach as shown on this picture. The floors above -including the cap- are off limits to visitors due to turning gears and levers.

Outside we use coloured chains and fences to keep visitors away from the turning sails.

How often do you have to tell people "Windmills do not work that way!"?

I often say it as a joke, but since most people I work with are a lot older than me, nobody gets it :-(

Can you post an imgur album with captions? There's a wheat mill that I love to walk around and just see the engineering that was involved in making it centuries ago. I would assume this one would be equally interesting.

What's different about the windmills of today versus 100 years ago?

What's different about the windmills of today versus 100 years ago?

I guess the main difference is that many mills nowadays sport enhancements (some more extreme than the other) that make the mill either more efficient or easier to operate. These developments came when windmills started to compete with internal combustion engines. The Traanroeier is a mill that serves well as an example of 1920's aerodynamic improvements.

Because there are numerous improvements under individual patents a lot of mills have their own 'blend'. Some even have a different system on each sail.

The basic Dutch sail types:

Traditional Dutch sails

Sails with the spar encased in an airfoil (Dekker)

Sails with a streamlined leading edge (Van Bussel)

Sails with jibs as leading edge (Fauël)

Automatic shutter sails

A complete adjustable airfoil (Van Riet and Bilau)

Examples of a blend:

Shutter sails with Van Bussel leading edges and air brakes

This mill has 2 traditional sails with 'Fauël' leading edges and airbrakes and 2 sails with 'Ten Have' slats and 'van Bussel' leading edges.

Perhaps, but it would take some time. I have already done 2 imgur albums on working with a sawmill and an oilmill in the past:

Sawmill 'Het Jonge Schaap'

Oilmill 'De Bonte Hen'

Awesome hobby! I moved to the Netherlands 5 months ago, and I am living on a small town with 3 windmills... I love to see them spinning!

Now my question: I heard that the positions of the sails when resting have different meanings, is that true? What are the most common meanings? And you still do this or is a lost tradition?

This is indeed true, in the past windmills were even used to transmit short messages over long distances. Most of these messages were practical ones such as "Watch out, the tax man is coming!", but also in the second world war when windmills signalled the arrival of German troops looking for hidden jews.

Some private messages include:

joy (sail just before it's highest point)

mourning (sail just past its highest point)

In catholic parts of The Netherlands, joy and mourning are reversed, don't ask me why.

long rest

marriage

Who dresses ( sharpens) your millstones? It's not an easy thing, but it seems like there would not be enough of these kinds of mills left, for a specialist to work all the time dressing them. Or, is there one man for all the EU?

We actually do it ourselves. Here is a photo of one of my coworkers busy dressing the stationary stone. It is hard work and not kind on the knees. I personally can't keep doing it for more than 20 minutes.

Hi there! I'm an American expat who has lived a few years now in the Netherlands, so thanks for still working with the windmills- they make the countryside here so much more picturesque!

Just wondering as I don't see it- how much flour can you guys make in a typical day with a windmill?

A turning windmill really adds something to the landscape, doesn't it?

How much we produce really depends on the wind. With a good wind (6bft in winter), we can grind up to 100 kg per hour

Are mills like yours still in operation from a historical/tradition preservation kind of a perspective, or necessity/commercial interest, or what? More to the point, I guess what I mean is while I think what you do is super neat, I'm curious what the focus of it is in the era of modern milling.

There are few windmills that are still commercially operated, most are kept for historical preservation.

That being said, many drainage mills serve as a backup should the electrical pumps fail or in case of heavy rainfall.

So, super practical question! I also live in the Netherlands and have a fascination for mills. How much does the apprenticeship cost you, in terms of money and time? Is it possible to combine your apprenticeship with a full-time job? The owner/proprietor of the mill where I get my flour (I bake my own bread) half-joked that there's a shortage of women in the mill-business, and that I should look into it, and ever since then it's been on the back of my mind :) Anyway, huge amount of respect for you and your colleagues!!

It is actually very affordable, both money- and time wise. To start your apprenticeship you can visit the mill where you got your flour and introduce yourself. Most millers are very welcoming and will explain everything in detail.

For the official part, go to the website of the miller's guild. Here you can register yourself as an apprentice for a one-time fee of about 100 euro, for which you will receive your theory books. The regular fee from then will be about 30 euro per year.

The apprenticeship will lasts as long as you want it to, partly depending on how much time you can spend. A minimum of 1 year is set to ensure all apprentices will have experience with all kinds of weather, but most take 2 years or more to complete their training and pass their exams.

do you wear wooden shoes?

I've actually ordered a pair as they work great as safety shoes.

What are the advantages of windmilled flour? Or differences to mechanical mills

Much like the work at the sawmill I linked to elsewhere in this topic, our core strength is that we can make products on demand with the preferred properties the client wishes to get. We can grind our grain as coarse or as fine as the client likes. The same goes for sieving the meal into flour. As a result we sell much more varieties of flour and meal than the local supermarkets do.

Because of this we mainly sell to people baking their own bread and local bakeries looking for something special.

Have you ever found anythinf left behind by previous millers, like a log book or a small note or tool stashed somewhere in the structure? I keep thinking of the line of bell ringers in the oude kerk in Delft.

It is somewhat of a tradition for millers to leave behind inscriptions in wooden parts that rarely get replaced. One of the windmills I worked at has a heavy oaken post that is at least 5 centuries old and is covered with inscriptions and dates from ages past.

How tall are you?

I'm of typical Dutch length, about 1.80m

Why are you "on" a windmill rather than "in" or "at". Is it treated like a ship?

Perhaps it is a transliteration from Dutch, we also say 'I'm on school" or 'on my job'.

Since the majority of the internal components are wooden, what types of lubricants do you use to keep the mill running?

Good question! That would mainly be pig grease as it doesn't damage the wood like synthetic greases do. Most mills have one or more pigskins with fat hanging in the cap.

Do people in your country really love Canadians?

Canada has a place in my country's collective memory as their liberator in WW2, so yeas, we really love and celebrate your country.

What is the most difficult part of operating a windmill?

For me it is keeping an eye on visiting kids. You won't believe how quick they can escape from your attention and attempt a nasty, machine driven suicide.

What is the most important function of your windmill (does it grind grain, etc) and what is the advantage of doing this through a windmill compared to other technologies?

The windmill I work on most is a corn mill. Much like the work at the sawmill I linked to elsewhere in this topic, our core strength is that we can make products on demand with the preferred properties the client wishes to get. We can grind our grain as coarse or as fine as the client likes. The same goes for sieving the meal into flour. As a result we sell much more varieties of flour and meal than the local supermarkets do. Besides, with flour from a supermarket it is always somewhat of a mystery what types of grain or additives were used.

Because of this we mainly sell to people baking their own bread and local bakeries looking for something special.

Does the windmill always turn in the same direction regardless of the wind?

Dutch windmills are all designed to turn anti-clockwise. There are various reasons for that construction of which the 2 most important ones concern structural integrity and ease of operation. Early on carpenters and millwrights realized that a tree grows slightly twisted, following the sun's path along the sky. This twist in fibers is much like a rope: if you twist it the wrong way, you'll loosen and ruin the rope, if you do it the right way you'll only strengthen it.

The second reason is that most people are right handed, which makes applying cloth on the sails more easy if the mill turns anti-clockwise. pic

Have you ever tried climbing the windmill, Assassin's Creed style?

I do climb in each sail when unfurling the cloth and crawl around in between the machinery if that's what you mean.

I have enjoyed reading this AMA. I live in Holland, MI which has one of the largest Dutch populations in the US and also the only authentic Dutch windmill in America.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zwaan_(windmill)

I was just wondering how similar our windmill is to the equipment you work on?

From what I've seen it is more or less similar. Dutch mills vary a lot in setup and design, making your windmill not all to different.