I'm Joe Lipari, the NYC comedian turned terror suspect because of a Facebook post. I was featured on/in "This American Life" and "Terms & Conditions May Apply" AMA.

What made the court let you go? Was it one specific day in court or did it build up over the year?

It built up over a year...

I turned down something in the neighborhood of 10 plea bargains. I don't think it's coincidental that it was dismissed as soon as I started talking to the press.

What did the facebook post exactly say?

I forget exactly, we read it on This American Life... Something to the extent of :

"Joe Lipari would love an armalite AR-10 semi-automatic weapon. So he could pump round after round into that smug, fruity, little concierge at the Apple Store. This may be someone you've known for years... Someone very, very close to you"

Admittedly a lapse in better judgement, anyone familiar w/ Fight Club should recognize it...

Wow

Yeah... I was really pissed, Fight Club was on...

Perfect Storm of bad situations.

I think you're the only person who was this screwed by Facebook(besides the idiots who commit crimes and post it on facebook)

I don't think I'm very alone in this at all... I think I made a little more noise because I was one of the first. Since I started getting press, I've had a lot of people reach out and tell me their stories.

The fact of the matter is, we're all spied on and we're just starting to learn how F-ed up it all actually is.

That's......something

Yes... Yes it is.

One guy I talked to told me he was one of the people developing social media monitoring programs for the government and I'd be shocked to know what they were doing... If he could tell me.

I assured him, I wouldn't be shocked. I'd be disappointed.

I doubt you were spied on. More than likely, someone with visibility to your page reported you.

The paper trail ends.

And FOI doesn't pertain, due to Patriot Act. So, they used something at some point in the case that's still classified.

Is the armalite AR-10 really your preferred weapon whenever you go on homicidal rampages? Perhaps we can interest you in our AR-30A1 now with more killing power. It's more expensive but I think you will find it well worth it. Please contact one of our friendly dealerships near you for more information. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Ha... I appreciate the classics.

If I was to go on a wild rampage, I'd probably use Samurai Swords. I'm fascinated with martial arts and I've taken a lot of swordsmanship classes. It'd be a waste of money if I decided to use a gun.

EDIT : As a clarification : This was written sarcastically.

You know, the random attacks are terrible, and all...

But i wish the next asshole who decided he needed to kill some folks would use a sword so i could point to him and explain that the weapons don't make the massacre, it's the asshole.

Sure... It's the asshole.

But, some weapons make it easy...

If we took away all the guns (and that would be a horrible idea to try, I think) people would find other ways to turn rage into death. What we really need are better mental health services, and a better (understanding of / willingness to deal with) that with makes people want to do these things in the first place.

I never suggested we get rid of guns... In the Army, I was an expert marksman. I think a man (or woman) should be able to buy a gun if he/she wanted. I think they should have to receive proper training first.

I think it should be like getting a license to drive a car... I can just as easily go on a killing spree w/ my car. The sad state of affairs that led up to the Navy Yard shooting proves both of our cases. We need better help for people who need help and people who need help w/ their mental health shouldn't have easy access to guns.

(Disclaimer : I've never considered a killing spree w/ my car)

Nah, man. Kunai are the future of assassin/killing technology. The Katana is much less throwable, for when the clerk enemy is running away.

You sir are even more ninja than I.

Hahaha. Glad you think so sir. Although If you are going for long range silence, you could always grab a TAC-50SD

If any feds knock on my door today, I'm blaming user/nukehamster and his in post linking.

I never found honor in killing anyone who isn't looking you in the eye.

Well, apparently you are not only a terrist, you're a sympathizer with the Imperial Japanese Army. To the internment camps with you! 'MERICA!

Fuck yeah

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Trust me... The "J/K" defense isn't met w/ a sense of humor.

Nah, everyone knows terrorists don't use samurai swords!

Not in this century.

Yeah, but until there are time-traveling terrorists, I think we're good

I think we found our hot new reddit discovered WB property....

Can we share the credit?

whatever, fuck them after it is made clear it's a movie reference - it should be done. It's getting pretty annoying to have to watch yourself when making jokes.

In fact, when it was all said & done...

An ADA came up to me and had a laugh about how legendary I am in his office. They knew it was from the movie and knew I was a comedian... One of the arresting officers even came to a show I did in Manhattan.

After all of that they still tried to prosecute you? If the arresting officer came to your show they should have had no case.

It was after the fact.

They were all following orders. I have no issue with a guy or gal doing their job.

That makes more sense. good on you for being the bigger man about it and understanding that they were just following protocol.

I was a soldier. I know the difference.

The brass that called the shots is who I'm upset with.

Do you get harassed any more than usual at airports, do you think you're on a watch list?

For a time, yes.... Not anymore..

I was specifically told not to travel much "until this is settled".

Prior to this incident, how did you feel about the increased post 9-11 security? Do you feel it's now completely unnecessary and negative or do you still feel that some of the monitoring and restrictions from the new systems are positive and if so which ones?

Great question...

I voted for Bush the 2nd time around. I fell for their B.S. hook line and sinker. In it's inception, I thought the Patriot Act, as it was sold to us, was a good idea.

I'm a Veteran of the U.S. Army... So, I always thought we were on the side of the people. Now, I see the government looks at all of us as potential threats, no matter how meritorious our civilian lives or military careers are.

I'm surprised the Veteran status didn't count for anything when you were all, "J/K guys. Don't you ever get mad at tech support?"

Didn't help at all... Unfortunately, it was probably held against me.

So, like a "Well, Fuck you for your service"?

Which really gets my goat because these are probably the first fools to say they're supporting the troops.

They support us by taking food stamps from the thousands of soldiers who need it, defund the VA, take college benefits away during the sequester, send us on Shock & Awe missions... If that's support, I'd rather they remain disinterested.

What was your charge?

Funny thing about the NYPD, they don't like admitting they knocked on a harmless man's door.

The charges started with a series of felonies (terroristic threats, public endangerment), eventually got busted down to disorderly persons before being dismissed entirely.

And the courts proceedings spanned over a year? How much did representation cost you?

Not over... It went from September to August.

About 11.5 months.... It didn't cost me anything, I got a good public defender.

[deleted]

I'm not sure how this pertains... But, I did say you could ask me anything...

According to Google : Port-au-Prince is the capital and largest city of the Caribbean country of Haiti.

Joes a good man. Came on my radio show and did a live AMA (ya i went there) about the fiasco and much more. It was also the night they caught Osama bin laden. Pretty wild stuff Go check it out http://daveandgiggles.podbean.com/2011/05/02/dave-and-giggles-episode-321-050111/

A damn good man...

I'll have to come podcast again sometime.

Interesting story and, as a Fight Club fan, I did recognize the quote so I find it a rather silly overreaction.

What was it that made them label you as a terrorist over a Facebook post as opposed to lesser charges?

I don't know if I could answer that.

I just think "terrorist" is the go-to overreaction in NYC these days.

If someone found themselves in a similar situation, having charges pressed against them for 'crimes' on social media, what advice would you give them?

1) Stick to your guns...

They'll try to scare you with a trial... They'll make it seem like taking a plea bargain and doing some community service is a good idea.

2) Google

Look up what you're charged with. Most of the time it's B.S. and easily argued with common sense and a good public defender. I used a public defender.... He was amazing and saw the humor in the whole fiasco.

1) Stick to your guns...

Phrasing.....

I have always had a way with words.

But man a whole year of having to deal with that... Damn, but you're absolutely right. Thanks for the answer.

It sucked... A lot.

But, it was better than doing time, paying a fine or doing community service. (My alternatives)

Oh which reminds me, did somebody report you? Or were they creepy-scanning everybody's Facebook who was wearing a fedora that day?

Probably the latter...

According to NPR they reached out to FB and said they don't get involved with this and they never report anyone, it is always the users. FB only provides info to law enforcement when requested, but I do agree that it was FB (rather, people within facebook acting like FB but actually law enforcement, NSA, etc.. running their little scripts to catch flagged statements, word, etc..) So yeah, it wasn't facebook but the big brother within facebook.. Do you really know anyone in NJ area where the case was opened?

Yes... I'm from that area of New Jersey. There's plenty of people who know me from that area...

None would think I was violent.

So, isn't it weird that the case got initiated there? Did facebook somehow assume you still lived there? Did they perhaps use your "home town" to get this rolling?

Although, nowadays things are a lot different.. People are like "that mass murderer had so many people who thought he was not violent, but look what he did, what if Joe is like that too? Better call this one in.." This reminds me of Seinfeld's The Masseuse opening credits: http://www.seinology.com/scripts/script-73.shtml

Yeah... Unless my mom called it in.

Hey bro, I heard your story on NPR the other night and told my whole family about it, since it reminded me so much of my sister. What was it like being stoned in that environment? As you described it, I was terrified... I'm wondering, now that you have this medium, is there more you'd just like to say, about anything, unedited?

Nothing sobers you up faster than a gun in your face.

The press always leaves out my disgust with the current U.S. Government. Most of the interviews I did were all before Snowden's whistleblowing. So, I looked like a crazed conspiracy theorist whose Facebook friends thought he was a terrorist. Not one interview has kept my sentiment that we're no longer the great country I was willing to defend.

What happened to your sister and when will her AMA be?

Yeah... What happened to your sister?

Hi Joe, thank you so much for doing this.

How were you approached by authorities for this post?

How did you feel in court?

What angle did your lawyer take in pleading your case?

How did the authorities explain how they came across your "threat of terror"?

What was the outcome from all of this?

Do you have anything to say to people who use Facebook and think that they are safe?

How were you approached by authorities for this post?

They knocked on my door (Shave & a haircut)

How did you feel in court?

Disappointed.

What angle did your lawyer take in pleading your case?

We never got into grand jury, so we never entered a plea.

How did the authorities explain how they came across your "threat of terror"?

They claimed someone called 911 until I asked for the tapes.

What was the outcome from all of this?

The outcome was it being dismissed. After wasting tons of tax dollars.

Do you have anything to say to people who use Facebook and think that they are safe?

Don't make any veiled threats... Even as a joke, we don't have much of a sense of humor anymore.

What did the Facebook post say verbatim?

"Joe Lipari would love an armalite AR-10 semi-automatic weapon. So he could pump round after round into that smug, fruity, little concierge at the Apple Store. This may be someone you've known for years... Someone very, very close to you"

EDIT : I've posted this twice in the past 24 hours. I hope SWAT isn't sent to my new home.

DISCLAIMER : I have no intention on going to anywhere to do anything violent. Ever.

The fact that you have to explain yourself is what scares me the most. Even if it is tongue in cheek, in my opinion you should be able to joke around freely and not be scared to talk. These scare tactics that were used on you and the way it changed you is totalitarian and looks like what the definition of terrorism really is. Joke around my friend and make the world a happier place. Peace!

Thanks... I try.

The disclaimers are all in jest. I don't think I'll have the same problem again.

If I do, I won't be so forgiving with litigation.

Thank you for your reply. if i may ask you one thing..did you change your set and/or the way you present yourself online thanks to what happened? Do you hold back more or maybe you're afraid to touch certain topics?

No... Not really. Then, I'd be letting that swine win.

I'm just sure my jokey-threats are more jokey than threatening.

Meh. A joke? What's so funny about it? It's not creative in any way.

I don't think people should have the "freedom" to threaten others, and when you start adding in specificity like the person to be harmed, the tool to be used, and the manner in which you will harm them I can understand the law intervening. I don't care if it is a spoof of a movie.

Want to tell jokes? Develop a sense of humor first.

Humor is not an exact science. Humor my friend, is subjective. What counts as a very spot on joke for you, might be a true miss in my view.

Now here we have a good example of a joke, which it is according to the joker in question, that does not resonates the same to everyone.

The same goes for threats. Who decides when a threat is a threat? If an actual terrorist would say such a thing, I would consider it as a danger. If a former member of the military/comedian says it, I would view it as an attempt to humor his followers. My point being is, don't take everything so serious, especially if you hear the reasoning behind the statement/joke.

You may not care about the fact that it is a movie spoof, but what about all the people that have a distaste for Apple employees and a love for the Fight Club movie that do like the combination of the two combined in a joke.

Couldn't have said it better.

Who decides when a threat is a threat?

As I said before, it depends on a few factors. Does he or she have a specific target, plan, and the means to carry out the threat?

If an actual terrorist would say such a thing, I would consider it as a danger.

Well as soon as you can get all the "actual terrorists" (and actual spree shooters and all other actual criminals) to identify themselves you please let us know. Until then, threats must be taken seriously when they are this specific.

Well, I didn't have the means for said attack...

I understand what you are saying and I understand why the FBI would take him in. Agreeing with it, no. A warning is one thing and would have sufficed, but taking away his basic rights and even prosecuting him, that is what boggles my mind. This is (in my view I can not speak for him) a form of repression. "Let's make an example out of him and scare our own people." Instill fear upon others, isn't that terrorism?

This whole ordeal frightens me because, a comedian should be able to make the edgiest jokes and be able to speak his mind, good or bad in taste. But again, I do understand what you are saying but what you are saying is no solution to the problem we are discussing.

And what of the rights of the Apple Store Employee? I'd like to know that people aren't allowed to leave my workplace and make disgruntled threats against me. There's multiple interests here that need to be balanced.

The employee had no idea this happened... Only the people who follow me on Facebook and the NSA operative who happened to have that shift.

Ira Glass seems like an extremely intelligent man.

Were you disappointed that he turned down a role in Orange is the New Black? I sure was -- I thought he was smarter than that.

I didn't know that happened... What role?

Maury Kind:

http://i.imgur.com/qBd3dDS.jpg

I have to rewatch the show... I dont' remember the character.

Since I don't have anything on topic to ask, I might as well:

What is your current favorite musician/artist/band/whatever you listen to?

My GF makes fun of me because my whole iTunes library is classic Hip-Hop (Biggie, Beasties, Wu, Tupac & Gangtsarr) & symphonies or orchestras.

If I'm in a rocker mood I love stuff like The Black Keys & Red Hot Chilli Peppers.

I also love jazz, funk & soul... I'm pretty sure I was conceived to Mo-Town.

Haha, Pretty cool, My wife really likes the oldies, up to the 90's. She is not a fan of pretty much all of the 00-now pop. I like some good Bass heavy DnB (Drum and Bass).

I had my phase...

I was a DJ when I first got out of the Army... I worked at places like The Tunnel & Sound Factory in NYC and love some good D&B. Now, I'm an old fogy and it's too loud. And, most electronica now sounds like computers vomiting.

Ah, yeah I understand that feeling a bit. I am 28 now, and still listen to some Dubstep, but most of it feels overplayed and more like brostep. I miss more of the heavy hitters like Excision and Datsik. I think that skrillex and co. have caused it to move into what is popular instead of what sounds nice/vibrates your chest.

I often wonder which is true :

Either getting old makes you lame or the music gets progressively crappier with each generation.

I do wonder myself. Although I do like a number of rap or "RnB" (even though there is no blues in it anymore) just for the beat/melody. Though the words often make me wonder where the artist went wrong in his LSD trip.

I feel like most popular music now is just manufactured stars lip syncing songs written by committee. There's no soul. See, I'm an old fogy.

Agree on old fogy part. Like really what ever happened to telling a story with your songs? Now a days it is all like drunk-whore-pop and rap saying "Don't have responsibilities or consequences."

Agreed.

Up All Night to Get Lucky is the most popular song out right now... I hear it every day. It's just a great beat with a catchy hook for 5 minutes. 90 seconds is sufficient.

Joe, this is amazing, I just listened to you on NPR barely an hour ago, and here you are. I was just searching to see if anyone mentioned your case, and was surprised it wasn't covered.

If anyone did not listen to the program on 1st link, I highly recommend it.

Main question is, did Apple do anything about your iphone? If anything this whole thing you went through should at least catch Apple's attention, because a lot of people got a piece of this bad vibe, if they did not have any to begin with. Think about it, if same thing happened to something you bought at Costco that costs $50, they would have replaced it right there and then, compare the to this hunk of metal and glass that costs $600+ and place where people get paid more and be called friggin "genius" and you have to explain what's wrong "in details" so they know to "fix" it..

The whole fiasco started because I knew my iPhone was being replaced... But, didn't have an appointment. After waiting for 4 hours and being talked down to by the "Apple Concierge" I left angry. Went home to chill, Fight Club was on... Facebook was open... I posted something many have called "stupid".

So, I got the new phone the next day... After making an appointment.

I know (I mentioned that I listened to the program, joe, are you high again?!) about the part but at least did apple reach out to you or any PR apologizing that nobody, appointment or not, should have to wait 4 hours (maybe more) to get their phone fixed, especially after being told "just come back" by one of their employees without mentioning the appointment.

Nope... No one from Apple reached out.

But, I've joked about it w/ their employees since.

Can you travel abroad?

I shouldn't have any trouble now... Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity in a while.

Mirror

Interesting...

[deleted]

Louie is one of my favorite comedies on TV...

Also, check out Legit.

I remember hearing your story on This American Life. I have thought about your story a few tines before submitting facebook posts. I am curious about that experience. How did you get on the show? Did they contact you or did you contact them about your story? Anything else you can tell me about being on the show. I'm a huge This American Life fan.

Thanks for doing this AMA. It's a story that more people need to know about.

The story was part of my stand-up routine for a while, someone from TAL heard about it and contacted me through a mutual friend.

We did the interview in 2 sessions in Midtown Manhattan, I was drinking organic coffee...

What else would you like to know?

The American establishment seems to be of the opinion that veterans pose a potential terrorist risk. Do you think your background in the U.S. Army played a role in what happened?

I get asked that a lot and I always answer the same...

I hope not.

I hope the establishment isn't afraid of the people willing to protect it. If so, the only reason could be that they know they're screwing us... They know that a true patriot would take them to task.

I'm not an American, but I have heard something about "enemies foreign and domestic".

We were raised to believe that sometimes, Americans go crazy enough to hate America. So, that's who we were made to believe our domestic enemies were. We never thought EVERYONE was a domestic enemy.

Thought is above your pay-grade soldier.

And that's why I didn't stay in the military.

I just listened to that episode of TAL this morning. I'm curious to know, do you still use Facebook? If you do, are you more careful about what you say? Your story highlights one of the big reasons I don't use Facebook, twitter, etc. I'm terrified of finding myself in a similar situation and I'm curious how your experience has affected how you approach social media. Thanks for the AMA!

I still use them.

I am a bit more careful... Now, I'm sure I'm not vague about my threats of violence.

Can you recommend any specific stretches to help with lower back pain? I have access to a foam roller if that helps. Thanks. Oh and thanks for the AmA.

Well, I am a certified yoga instructor...

I highly recommend http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/479 and light twisting...

My buddy Tara Stiles has a good video you should check out : Yoga for Back Pain : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJxcSfsZdsA

Thank you for the advice! Will check those out.

A friend saw the quote on Lipari's wall and called the police.

Did you ever find out which friend did this? Are you still friends? Guessing they were more of an acquaintance than 'friend'?

I'm almost certain that's a lie.

When I pressed to hear a copy of the 911 call the story changed. Suddenly someone walked into a police station and filed a report.... Which is something they don't keep a record of. I'm certain it was an NYPD or NSA bot that flagged my post.

Wow. You would think a sudden story change that drastic regarding facts that took place would cause the case to be thrown out or something. My guess is NSA.

Yeah... And it was all before Snowden. I was a crazy conspiracy theorist to suggest it was anything like that.

So, I was called all kinds of things. One NYC paper called me the poster child for internet stupidity.

EDIT : on the front page.

Just like how some upstanding Canadian citizen apparently reported Justin Carter.

I can't believe people willingly sign up for Facebook anymore.

Just be careful what you share

No question, i just always like to thank troops for their service, and i plan on joining the military myself one day so..... Thank you for your service and sacrifice

You're welcome.

What branch do you plan on joining? What MOS are you interested in?

I cant get to far ahead of myself im only in highschool, but my school sends AT LEAST 2 kids to each service academy each year so that seems like a reliable option for me. I would like to go to the naval academy and honestly become a SEAL, i realize that is difficult but that is partially why i want to do it. Of course if i dont get into any service academies i will end up doing a ROTC program to afford college so right now I'm not exactly sure but i still have another 3 years to think about it (im only a freshman). And who knows if I'll still even be interested in the military then (i think i will be though)

Good luck... It's a good way to pay for college.

Don't sign any papers until you look into your recruiters promises. Many of them lie.

You're a complete fucking idiot, a moron, a half-wit with the common sense of a fucking pickle. What a douche. The police overreacted but is it that difficult to keep your ignorant hole shut? Fuck, you're delusional.

You must be fun at parties.

I'm intelligent enough to know:

1. Not to write violent threats on facebook, twitter, etc.
2. Not to be so goddam juvenile as to have a facebook, twitter account. It's for children, girls, entertainers and half-wits. You fill at least 3 of these categories.
3. I served also and you'd think you'd have more basic common sense than what you demonstrated after you finished your commitment as an enlisted man. But, I've been wrong before.
4. Schenck vs. US Read it.

Grow up. Being an adult doesn't mean you don't have fun.

I am very in touch with my feminine side... That bitch loves to shop.

I've always been told grown-ups should pack insults into the point they're trying to make. It helps people take them seriously.

Thanks for being a shining example.

Apparently your time in the service, your experience with the police and your education have failed. You're a half-wit. You're the kind of tool who would get someone killed in the field. Please, grow up sometime.

I didn't finish school... Yet.

Maybe I can work to make it to your level some day.

Please STFU before you make yourself look even more ridiculous and asinine than you already are.

Heed your own advice.

Oh, the irony of your comment. You delusional douchebag half-wit. The whole "stoner" comedy thing has been done, many times. It's tired and not funny, not unlike you.

You don't come across as being very intelligent.

Going by your history, you don't seem very emotionally stable.

You should seek professional help... The VA may have programs that can help you.

FYI : You're delusional.

What I did has nothing to do with that case... I wasn't talking people out of serving their country, I was bitching about bad customer service. Could I have handled it better? Sure... But, that's not for the courts to decide.

What I posted was worded not as a threat but as something I'd like to do. It's not illegal to want to shoot somebody and it's not illegal to joke about wanting to shoot somebody.

As a Veteran you're for limiting free speech? Whose side are you on? They'll let anybody in the military.

I'm not for limiting free speech. I'm for common sense and it's application when engaging in free speech. Since Columbine and other related incidents people, as a general rule, take online threats very seriously. I agree with you that LE overreacted but you, in all your moronic glory, played into their hands. You're fortunate that they didn't have a case. How is anyone to know that you didn't mean it if you weren't a comedian. Are you capable of any self-awareness whatsoever.

I daresay you're the delusional fucking half-wit. Grow up.

Even if I wasn't a comedian... I didn't break any laws.

Maybe you should look up a few more unrelated Supreme Court cases to try and seem smarter than you are.

Good luck.

Cupcake, Unlike you I actually have an extensive education and have enjoyed success. Grow up.

So... The success has passed?

Good luck trying to reestablish yourself.

Cupcake, I make more money in a month than you will ever see in 2 years, ever. It's called having a BS in Chem. E., a MS in Physics and MBA in Finance and developing your own software you license to Fortune 500 companies. It's called working hard. But, then again, you'd rather spending your times smoking your "medicinal" skunkweed and being stupid. Good to know. :)

I never get skunk... I'm a Kush/Herer man.

For someone who works so hard you sure spend a lot of time being a punk-bitch on reddit.... And, you have no idea how much money I make. I always find, when people boast about something they can't prove... It's usually a lie. I'll never know, because you hide behind a false internet identity when acting tough.

Smart money says, you'd never talk down to someone face-to-face.

Just a heads up, (kinda too late now) but I'm pretty sure this guys a troll. He's just trying to get attention. The guy's name is SHITLORDHERE. That sounds like a name that I would've come up with back when I was 13 and I wanted to mess with people on chatrooms (21 now, for those who are curious). Anyways, I just figured I'd offer my two cents.

Thanks, I like feeding trolls.. It's fun to see where they take it.

Hey! The guy doing the AMA responded. I don't really have a question, but I just want to say that it is completely bullshit how you got arrested for that Facebook post. It's funny how 9/11 happened 12 years ago and we are still acting like it happened last week. It's just really scary how badly the government took advantage of that opportunity to infringe on our privacy. I really have to give you credit for standing your ground and not taking any plea bargains. If you did, the NYPD could just justify their actions by saying "Hey, we were right all along". Hopefully, this will encourage people to stop using Facebook and other social media websites. It's starting to pretty much becoming an online data base for the government to use.

Ha... I never got a notification from the side convo you had. Thanks for seeing through the bullshit... The hardest part of the situation are the people who vilify me, as if they've never had a lapse in better judgement.

I never expected to live in a world like this. I used to make fun of conspiracy theorists who thought big bad government was out to get them. The war on terror is a joke and America has become one in the world community.

Our leaders are bickering halfwits jockeying for money and power.