We found hundreds of sheriffs believe a far-right idea that they're more powerful than the president. A reporter & a scholar, we're behind the most comprehensive U.S. sheriff survey. AUA!

Do you ever wonder why sheriffs would answer surveys in a way thats clearly not in their best interest if they are abusing their power?

I would guess that they aren't embarrasses by the belief. After all, they think it true.

Specifically, Richard Mack told me: “I was surprised by some of that, and pleased...The people of the country are getting behind us.”

A lot of these guys think they're untouchable, and a lot of them are right

The sheriff in my county has run unopposed for quite a while. He also strongly believed that bus loads of "antifa" were being brought to our small community during black lives matter protests and openly stated he wouldn't enforce any mask rules during the pandemic. He still ran unopposed after that.

I just want to point out here that a startling number of sheriffs in our survey said antifa was responsible for January 6th, even as the news emerged that some sheriffs themselves were present at the rally before the invasion of the capitol.

How did the U.S. come to adopt a system of elected law enforcement and criminal justice officials? It seems very strange to me, observing from Canada; I wonder why anyone would want politicians in those roles. Have there been serious movements to do away with elections of sheriffs (or DAs, or judges), in favour of appointments?

It is strange, isn't it: I've met German prosecutors who were stunned that we elect our district attorneys and judges. The answer is different for each of these jobs. With sheriffs, we began electing them in the colonies as a way to undermine the crown's power: originally they had been appointed by kings. Generally, with all these roles, you hear the argument that it makes them more responsive to their constituents, which is, of course, debatable, and there have been movements to either abolish sheriffs (this happened in Connecticut) or make them appointed (which happens in a few states).

How is the idea of being more powerful than the president a right wing idea?

Exactly, I seem to remember lots of California sheriffs telling the Trump administration that they were not going to enforce federal immigration and marijuana laws, and that there wasn’t a damn thing Donald Trump could do about it.

Prosecutorial discretion is a massive power that can render any law moot in their jurisdiction.

For sure. There is a distinction between rejecting what you're being told to do and declining to opt into something optional (which is the case for immigration). But politically, the left can certainly use the discretion given to these positions to advance their aims on the local level.

I don't know if the idea is necessarily right-wing in all cases, and one could debate whether a left-wing sheriff could buck a right-wing president and claim they are more powerful than them. But historically this idea did emerge on the right in American politics. Sheriffs were long associated with conservative, law-and-order views — they were often using violence to stop civil rights efforts in the 1960s — and in the 1980s and 1990s, as many on the right grew angry with the federal government over debacles like the standoff at Ruby Ridge, or the siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, they looked to sheriffs as the ones who could stand up against federal "tyranny" (that was the word you tended to see). It was right-wing, anti-government activists who promoted this idea, and sheriffs who were already politically conservative then adopted it. So it's up for debate whether it's inherently or necessarily a "right wing idea," but practically and historically it has been.

Q: is the timing of this AMA related to midterms?

Yes, in a sense: We wanted the survey articles to come out before the midterms because sheriffs are on the ballot in so many places, and the goal of the survey was in part to encourage voters to learn more about their sheriff candidates. We thought of the AMA as a way to answer questions that might stem from the articles: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2022/10/18/we-surveyed-u-s-sheriffs-see-their-views-on-power-race-and-immigration

Is this a movement that developed for electoral reasons or an idea that was exogenous to elections but proved useful in the current political climate?

I would say this movement did not develop for electoral reasons: In the 1980s, the "Posse Comitatus" movement — which violently fought with federal agents — wanted to enlist sheriffs to their cause and promoted the idea that sheriffs were especially powerful. This involved enlisting whoever had already been elected. It was only later that sheriffs began campaigning on the idea, and now you see elections where candidates promise that they would be a "Constitutional Sheriff" (which is the shorthand meaning: I believe in these ideas). I do think in the current political climate — with Trump making claims about the FBI and the "Deep State" — it has synced up naturally with the anti-federal rhetoric some sheriffs were already using.

Who do you think is the most left-wing sheriff in America?

Hi there, I actually wrote an article on this: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2022/10/22/progressive-sheriffs-are-here-will-they-win-in-november

Although their numbers are small, there are lots of sheriffs who have claimed progressive views, and the question will be whether they're able to actually make changes once they're in office. Also what it means to be 'progressive' can be debated: Is it making a jail more rehabilitative? Is it banning aggressive policing tactics? Is it refusing to arrest people seeking abortions? Is it spending more money to help people in the jail, or defunding your own department? Susan Hutson ran as a progressive in New Orleans (Orleans Parish) to make the jail less deadly, and yet the rate of deaths in the jail under her tenure hasn't declined. Then you've got Javier Salazar in San Antonio (Bexar County) who also has problems in his jail, but has made a big public attack on Florida governor Ron DeSantis, pledging to investigate the migrant flights to Martha's Vineyard. So it's all in the eye of the beholder a little bit. One sheriff who I don't believe uses the word 'progressive' to describe himself but has been flying under the radar, doing things that I think the left would generally celebrate, is Morris Young of Gadsden County, Florida, who works to break the cycle of incarceration: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/23/gadsden-florida-sheriff-prison-re-entry-program-morris-young

A small, but still significant number, of sheriffs also support far-right anti-government group the Oath Keepers, some of whose members are on trial for invading the U.S. Capitol.

Can you elaborate on this?

Sure thing. We didn't ask for specifics, but we asked sheriffs if they support the positions of the Oath Keepers, and 11% said they did, and many more were "neutral," suggesting they might agree with the group but not be admitting to it. We also know some sheriffs have appeared on Oath Keepers membership lists, and Richard Mack, who runs an organization that trains sheriffs, was previously involved with the group, although he says he left well before they took on a more violent, militia-style identity.

Did the pandemic give some of those in charge of enforcing lockdowns, mandates, etc a bit of a power trip? It always seemed like a bit of an opportunity for this, but I'd be curious to know if that was the case.

Second question: Sheriffs are normally associated with the right wing - but are any sheriffs massively left wing?

I absolutely think the pandemic was a rare opportunity for sheriffs to 1. exert their power and 2. get attention for doing so. Before the pandemic, sheriffs tended to focus their rhetoric, at least relating to their own power, on guns and immigration. But with lockdowns and mask mandates, they could proclaim themselves as opponents of governors, and refuse to enforce their orders. This was especially true in states with Democrat governors and Republican sheriffs. Here's a piece we wrote at the time about this phenomenon: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/05/18/the-rise-of-the-anti-lockdown-sheriffs

Do you think spoon feeding these conspiracies to LEO’s while at the same time publicly admonishing Law Enforcement is conditioning an internal culture of division against the general public who believe all aspects of government, including law enforcement, should be transparent and accountable to that same public?

If so, can it be corrected, or are we headed towards one political party having their own private army?

In general, I think you're right. I've found that law enforcement feel much more embattled and bitter towards criticism than they would have a decade ago, and this is symbolized by the "thin blue line" imagery: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/06/08/the-short-fraught-history-of-the-thin-blue-line-american-flag

But at the same time I have met lots of sheriffs who profess a strong belief in transparency and accountability, and there are plenty who have run 'from the left,' seeking to use the rhetoric of the Black Lives Matter movement to attract progressive voters. While the election of progressive sheriffs may not transform policing, it does strike me as a step away from a world in which law enforcement entirely sides with one party.

Two questions: why should anyone take you serious given your affiliation with the left wing and highly partisan “Marshall Project?” Seems really convenient that your findings parallel your personal beliefs.

Second: In many states the sheriff is the highest elected law enforcement official in the county and is not subject to the authority of the state’s governor. (Compare Arizona with Florida) Also, the division of labor in the constitution (and numerous Supreme Court cases) means law enforcement is a power reserved to the states and the president has no direct control over local law enforcement. Doesn’t that refute your belief that these sheriffs are holding “right wing beliefs” when they’re literally stating a legal fact.

Second question first: Under most state constitutions, sheriffs are bound by state laws, which are signed by governors — this is distinct from sheriffs' roles in enforcing governors' or presidents' executive orders. And in the 1960s, you saw sheriffs trying to block federal enforcement of civil rights protections; there is an ongoing debate, to be sure, about jurisdiction when it comes to federal officers (whose boss, in a general sense, is the president).

As for the first question, we at the Marshall Project strive to be non-partisan and certainly don't take partisan positions on anything; whether one thinks our work is ideologically biased is subjective, of course, but I do want to point out that the survey findings don't necessarily bolster a "left wing" view: Richard Mack, the head of the constitutional sheriffs association, sees these results as positive and validating, and we quote him saying so in our article.

as a non American the concept of sheriff is so strange. do they have any education or prior experience?

We learned when we did this survey that some states have educational requirements for sheriffs and most do not. Most sheriffs have previously worked in law enforcement, often for the same departments that they are now running. Most of our respondents went to college, but they were less likely to have a master’s degree than police chiefs. More here: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2022/10/18/we-surveyed-u-s-sheriffs-see-their-views-on-power-race-and-immigration

Since you name dropped Sheriff Clarke, who was by all accounts the best county Sheriff we've had in a long time, how do you feel about his replacement Earnell Lucas hiring the son of Milwaukee County DA David Chisholm for an $85,000 per year chief of staff job on the taxpayer role even though he had no college degree and no law enforcement experience?

I don't know about these allegations — has there been any reporting on it you can share?

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To an individual person, a Sheriff does have more power over them than the President. A person is more likely to interact with the Sheriff than the President. Also, in most cases, the Sheriff is the most powerful person in a county. In most locales the only person that can arrest the Sheriff is the Coroner.

So I take a little issue with your implication that it's so preposterous that people would think the Sheriff has more power than the President.

This isn't so much about who has more power over an individual in a direct way in their daily lives — it's about the idea that sheriffs can decide which laws to enforce, and so Congress, the president, or a state legislature could pass a law and the sheriff, believing in the 'constitutional sheriff' ideology, could refuse to enforce it.

Based on the findings you’ve revealed, what will you do with this data that will change things?

Personally, I'm encouraging all readers to learn more about who their sheriffs are, and to get more informed about sheriff candidates' positions ahead of the next election. The goal of this survey was in part to encourage a bigger conversation about sheriffs and their role, similar to the one that the criminal justice 'reform' movement has been having about prosecutors for the last few years.

don't you think sheriffs have a fairly good handle of what is going on in their conunties?

Absolutely. Our survey did suggest that sheriffs know who their constituents are and have much to say about the biggest problems facing their counties. But we've also heard many stories of Black and immigrant populations not feeling like the sheriff understands their issues. So it's a mixed picture.

Have you received foreign donations for this?

No. You can read more about the Marshall Project's funding here: https://www.themarshallproject.org/funders

Great job to everyone involved. Kudos!

Is there any thing you recommend we read to better understand policing, its history, and alternatives?

There aren't any great books about sheriffs — yet. Mirya and her colleague Emily Farris are working on one. As for policing more broadly, here are a few recommendations:

‘From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime: The Making of Mass Incarceration in America,’ by Elizabeth Hinton

Ghettoside by Jill Leovy

Tangled Up in Blue by Rosa Brooks

The Rise of the Warrior Cop by Radley Balko

How do you feel about the statement ACAB (all cops are bastards)?

I think this acronym has gotten popular, mainly on the left, to reflect a wave of anger and frustration at deaths and abuse at the hands of law enforcement. I've seen that anger, for sure. At an individual level, I have also met plenty of law enforcement officers who got into their jobs to help people and earnestly want to do so, even if they have not been given adequate training or counseling to handle the traumas that this kind of job inevitably brings their way.