IamA PhD student studying migratory bats and wind energy AMA!

• What is it about bat lungs that make them susceptible to pressure changes caused by turbines?
• Why aren't birds affected the same way?
• What is your favourite bat species?
• If you were going to brew a bat inspired beverage what would it be?

Good questions!

1) because bats fly they need really efficient lungs, so the lungs of bats are really thin (to facilitate oxygen transfer to their blood) and really pliable. They also have balloon like lungs like all mammals do. The flow is tidal (in and then out)

2) birds have a different sort of lung that is much more rigid and uni-directional over the gas exchange membrane. Does that make sense?

3) my fav bat species is the hoary bat

4)I'd brew a stout...a big Russian imperial stout :)

Here's a great illustration showing the difference between respiratory systems:

http://cdn.visualnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/3-different-ways-to-breath.gif

that's a great illustration! thanks!

Us too! Though little brown bat is cute too.

little browns are awesome, such big personalities in such little packages!

Is it also possible that bats spend more time flying around near the blades as they hunt insects than do birds? Also as you say birds have unidirectional airways, which means that their lungs cannot really over-pressurize. It is like a diver ascending, he exhales all the way up because that way the exhalation airway stays open and any over-pressure vents easily instead of creating barotrauma.

There are a lot of different hypotheses about why bats are being killed by turbines, a lot of them focus on attraction. Bats may be attracted to the turbines because they perceive them as trees to roost in or they may be attracted to insects which may congregate around the turbines. So yes, it seems like bats are spending more time around the blades because they may actually be attracted to them, but it appears that birds attempt to avoid them.

Wind energy on bats? ELI5 please!

Many wind energy facilities kill bats, sometimes in really high numbers. This occurs all around the world.

In North America, we recently estimated that from 2000-2011 between 840,000 and 1.7 million bats were killed at wind turbines across North America, the vast majority of which (~80%) were of just three species.

Because of this, bat biologists are pretty worried about the effect wind turbines are having on bats.

How's that?

Would it be better to build more nuclear power plants and irradiate the bats?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support wind energy, I just want it to be better.

Between turbines and white nose syndrome, what condition are bats in in North America? It seems like the stock response is always, "Well, if we really start doing work now, we can definitely maintain etc., etc." Are we in real danger of losing any bat species? More than one?

Frankly, it's been a tough decade to be a bat in North America.

This is hard question because we lack solid population size estimates for most species of bats, especially for the species being killed in large numbers by turbines (hoary bats, silver-haired bats, and eastern red bats).

Three species of bat have just been been put on Canada's endangered species list because of white nose syndrome (WNS) (the little brown, the tri-colored, and the northern myotis), but there are more species being killed by the fungus in the States. Yes we are worried that we may lose some from WNS, or at least losing them in areas where WNS is most prevalent.

In general, wind turbines are worse for species that are not being infected with WNS. However, there are some species that are affected by both (like little browns and tri-coloreds). It's hard to say if or when we'll lost any of the migrants, but the current fatality rates are alarming.

Bats live a long time and reproduce really slowly (1-2 pups a year), so it takes them a really long tie to recover from population declines. that's one of the big reasons bat biologists are worried.

What are bats favorite type of pie?

hmmm...that depends on the species. I think vampire bats would love blood pudding (which isn't really pie I guess, but oh well), carnivorous bats would be all about meat pies (of course!), fruit bats would probably love peach pie or something similar, and I don't know what kind of pie insectivorous bats would like.

The bats at my zoo love apples, so I would guess they would like apple pie! The other fruits they commonly get are less common in pie form.

I'm stumped about what kind of pie insectivorous bats would like. What do you think?

I got it! Insectivorous bats would like grasshopper pie (I just found out that was a thing)

My friend once told me this crazy sounding idea that bats fly near turbines because they mistake them for water. What do you think?

There are a lot of hypotheses about why bats are attracted to turbines and that is one that remains to be thoroughly tested.

I know someone who is looking at that right now! I don't think he has published, yet. It is his master's thesis.

cool, let me know when it gets published!

What is your favourite type of pie?

lol...well I guess I can start with this one, even though it has nothing to do with bats!

that would be lemon meringue

Thanks. Do you think bats are overprotected? Genuine question as I work in Architecture and have experience on a couple of wind turbine projects so I know how careful the design team have to be in preparation regarding bat surveys etc.

I actually think that there isn't enough protection for bats, but this really varies by region. They are quite well protected throughout Europe, but in North America there is very little legislation that protects bats, unless they are endangered.

What measures, if any, are there being made to protect bats from wind turbines? I thought I had heard a study somewhere that they were testing out certain sounds that might deter bats from flying too close to turbines. Is there any hope for protecting bats from dying from turbines?

The only effective mitigation we have so far is to shut turbines down in low wind speeds because the majority of bats are killed when wind speeds are low (<6m/sec or so). They have been numerous studies that have looked at this. Check out this publication. Or this one I did a few years ago. Shutting turbines down in low wind speeds has consistently been shown to reduce fatalities by at least 50%.

This is great, but if fatality rates of bats are really high, a reduction of 50% may not be sufficient to protect the bats, so we need more research to refine the techniques or come up with new ones.

There have been tests of an ultrasonic deterrent, but nothing available to date. Read more about it.

Thank you so much for replying! I follow every bat organization that I come across, and I think it would be a dream job to work with bats! There's not really anything where I'm located though, so for now I just need to invest in a good bat box and support people like you, your research is so important!

Thank you!

Are you familiar with Dr. Craig Willis' work on searches, searcher efficiencies and scavengers?

I know Craig's work about bats and wind energy pretty well (I think!). Did you have a specific question about those metrics?

Yes, virtually all searches are done using the industry standard 50m radius from the turbine base. This was fine when blades were only 10 to 25m long. There has been some work done on bird mortality which searched beyond the 50m radius (most blades are 45+m now) and found very significant numbers of carcases outside the standard search radius. Thus the mortality is under reported using standard search protocols alone on the basis of the area searched.

While bats are smaller and lighter and die from barotrauma more often than collision, is it reasonable to expect that larger-bodied bats would be projected outside the 50m search radius and have you looked for, or found evidence of this?

Most studies show that bats tend to fall closer the the turbine towers than birds do. For example, I found ~84% of bat fatalities within 40m of the towers. I know that many projects search larger areas around the turbines, but that bats are always found quite close, so although some bats may be missed with a 50m search, I don't think it would lead to a gross underestimate.

Actually many bats are killed by being struck, barotrauma is just another way that bats can be killed by turbines, but without being struck.

Thanks, good info! Craig gave dynamite testimony on danger to bats at our appeal of a wind project near here. His work on searcher and scavenger efficiencies substantiated our concerns over the difficulty getting good mortality estimates in this terrain. Biggest problem though is that population sizes are not know, therefore actual impact of mortalities from turbines on populations are impossible to determine or predict. For instance little brown bat was highest % of mortalities at Price Wind Farm for a number of years running, then almost none found after that - because of adaptation (unlikely) or extirpation? No one knows…

In the case of little browns, white nose syndrome has decimated the population in the east, so it's hard to say that it was turbines that caused the decline.

How long have you been studying about bats?

I started working with bats in 2003, so 12 years. First as an undergrad, then as a Masters student, now as a PhD student.

Does your work focus mostly on migratory bats?

Yep, my PhD research focuses on two species of migratory bat, the hoary bat and the silver-haired bat

They are two of the species most heavily affected by wind energy in North America: hoary bats make up ~38% of all fatalities and silver-haired bats ~19%. In Alberta, hoary bats are about 54% and silver-haired 37% of all fatalities.

I live in North Dakota, and work at a aviation facility, during the summer we have bats everywhere, I take some home and put them in a southern facing bat box. They do a number on the skeeters in the back yard and are for the most part friendly. Is this bad for the bats? And what happens to them in the cold winter months? i never look inside the bat box.

Yeah, bats are great to have around! They definitely help with the mosquitoes! I don't know if it's bad for the bats. Do you live pretty close to where you work? Generally we tell people not to move bats too far from where they were living, especially not if they have pups in their original roost. Bats are really loyal to their roosts and will return every year. I know of some studies that have recaptured bats in a roost years after they were first caught!

The bats likely won't be able to spend the winter in the bat boxes. They will go somewhere to hibernate where the temperature is just consistently just above freezing (~6 degrees Celsius) and nicely protected.

Hope that answers your questions!

Awesome reply, thanks ! I live maybe 10 minutes from work. Is it normal for them to just land on the empty aircraft ramp? i pick up 3-5 a week and put them out of harms way (I think), the ones that don't want to attack me I take home. waiting for the day when I get pulled over and the officer says, "excuse me, why is a bat on your shoulder?" LoLz. I do check them for obvious critters and over all health before I take them home. any idea what type they are? Very small, @ 4-5 inches american and dark brownish in color

Be careful handling those bats! Wear leather gloves to protect yourself from bites, sick bats are not always obvious!

It's not weird for bats to find places to "hangout" during the day, sometimes they are found in odd places. Do you have any pics?

I'll save your name and send you some this summer !! Also, we have wind turbines just south of the airport, @ 5 mile or so, locals say that since they went up, maybe 5 years ago, the bat population around the airport has gone way down. Not that it matters, but could I be able to tell girl bats from guy bats? don't want a sausage fest in the bat house...

yep, you can tell the difference between males and females really easily. Male bats have external genitalia.

Doh... Holy bats balls, never thought about checking the under carriage...

LOL...they may not have balls at that time of year, but they will have a penis

Wait. The poster you're replying to says southern facing bat box. Why southern facing? That sticks out to me and if you know, let us know?

Bats, especially female bats with pups, like it quite warm. This reduces the amount of energy they have to use to keep themselves warm. So, at northern latitudes, we recommend putting bat houses up so that they face south and thus get a a lot of sun and warm up nicely for the bats.

Who funds your research? I see you have a link for donations, do you have a public list of who has donated?

My research has been funded by a lot of different organizations. There is no public list per se, other than the list of donors on the crowdfunding site, but I do acknowledge all my funders in my publications.

Funding for my overall research project (for both my Masters and my PhD) has been provided by grants from the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, TransAlta Wind, Bat Conservation International, the North American Bat Conservation Partnership, the University of Calgary’s Institute for Sustainable Energy Environment and Economy, Alberta Innovates–Technology Futures, and the Alberta Conservation Association.

Most of that was for my Masters project, but some of it was for my PhD. Some of it pays my salary and some of it has paid for research expenses.

Bruce Wayne's probably on it

that would be wonderful...hmmm, I wonder where I put my bat signal?

• Are wind turbines like this or like this also hazardous to bat populations or is that largely a problem with the more "conventional" ones?

• Solar panels seem to kill some birds - are there any risk to bats from these as well? (My impression is that bats fly only at night, so no? Or might there be problems around sunset / dawn?)

• If you had a large amount of money to invest in improving the power grid, how would you invest it? (Beyond, I'm assuming, funding your own research).

1) I don't know of any studies that have looked at the impact of those types of turbines on bats, but I can tell you that bat fatalities increase exponentially as turbines get taller (see this paper I worked on). So it stands to reason that the vertical axis turbines, which are closer to the ground may not be as bad....but that's just speculation! 2)There have been a couple of studies on the impacts of solar farms on bats and I think the consensus is that, as you say, bats are active at night and the "animals on fire" issue happens during the day. I think it's still a new issue and time will tell! 3)I would invest in solar panels on peoples homes and in parking lots, etc. Add solar to urban environments.

Don't forget the "animals on fire" solar arrays are not the photovoltaic arrays that are dominating the industry growth right now...

true, good point

Two more questions if you're still around to answer:

1. How high do bats typically fly? Noticed that that second wind turbine I'd linked is called the Buoyant Air Turbine which is shorted to the BAT and seemed kind of amusing in context here. It's flight height was listed as around 1000 feet. How high would you need to fly a wind generator to negate negative impacts on bat populations?

2. Do you think there's too much of a distinction made between technologies like wind generation and what pops up in the media as this horrifying idea of "geoengineering"? I'm personally interested in further exploration of fertilizing the oceans which certainly has some potential downsides, but here we're also talking about some of the drawbacks of wind generation. Do you think the differing level of backlash these ideas seem to receive is warranted?

I'm still checking in!

1) Flight height really depends on the species, but the bats that are killed most frequently by turbines are those that fly at high altitudes out in the open. Some species (like mexican free-tailed bats) have been detected at 3km and a hoary bat hit an airplane at over 2km agl. Here's a paper. It's hard to say how or if the design of the BAT will negatively impact bats. We didn't think conventional turbines would impact bat populations like they do, so we might not know about the BAT until they become common.

2)First, thank you for the link and the interesting question. I hadn't really thought of this before. I think the big difference is the goal of the technology, the goal of geoengineering is changing the climate, but wind turbines are to create electricity. If it had been framed differently, i.e. we will be using wind turbines to alter wind patterns and change the weather (as they have been shown to do) and generate electricity on the side, the response to them may be very different.

Not sure if that completely answers your question, but I don't think I have an answer, just thoughts on it. Thanks for that!

Excellent research. Wind turbines are an obvious green energy source to reduce usage of fossil fuels, alas this obviously creates a bit of a wrinkle for bats. Do we know if fossil fuel usage also has a costs to bats lives? For instance, does pollution from coal plants cause difficulties for bats?

Every type of energy production has a cost. Fossil fuel usage contributes to climate change, which will impact bats and their habitats. I think what we are really concerned about is the magnitude and rate of fatalities of bats at wind turbines. We're not sure if populations can withstand this level over such a short period of time.

[deleted]

sometimes it truly does!

How long did it take you to get over the typical bat fear of running away and swatting your hands in the air while doing so?

lol...I actually never had that fear.

I know little to nothing about bats, what is the most fascinating thing about this creature?

Oh god, what's there not to fascinated by!?

If I had to pick, I'd have to say that I love how diverse they are. There's now over 1,300 different species of bats known. They live almost everywhere and fill a ton of super different roles. Some eat insects (yay!), some pollinate plants (thank bats for tequila), and some eat fruit and spread the seeds.

So yeah, in short, bats are super awesome and really important. You should check out /r/BatFacts :)

Wait... Some bats are responsible for tequila?

You have made me a fan.

my work here is done!

Do you know of any wind companies that promote reducing consumption of energy? I feel that most companies cite current use and expected demand to promote increasing wind farm production.

I don't know of any that promote reducing consumption, but there are a lot of wind energy companies, so it's possible!

How many bats are killed every year by wind turbines? How can the operators of these turbines reduce that number?

Across North America, estimates vary from around 300,000 to 800,000, so it's likely somewhere in the middle.

In Germany, it's been estimated that around 200,000 bats are killed per year.

So, the numbers are not insignificant, especially given that for many of these species, this level of fatality is unprecedented.

Interesting. With so many bats dying, how do they mate? Not to sound crude but if a bat loses a chosen mate to a wind turbine, will they still mate that season? Or at all?

I'm just trying to theorize that deaths in a species are more impactful to the species at large depending on how that species mates.

Great observation. Most bat species are polygamous, with both males and females mating multiple times during autumn and over-winter. So, turbines would likely have a larger impact on species that are monogamous, but there aren't many of those.

The main question of my PhD is whether bats consistently use the same migration routes year after year and whether that migration route is learned by the pups. If this is the case, turbines placed along these routes may impact the overall route (i.e. if the "teachers/leaders" die, will the route still be used or will it be forgotten?) This would have implications for the population beyond simply a reduction in size. So to relate that your question, deaths may impact different species differently based on a whole lot of things!

I realized I didn't answer part two of your question. Operators can reduce fatalities by carefully siting facilities away from areas where bat concentrate (especially during migration) and turning turbines off in low wind speeds.

How exactly do the wind turbines kill the bats? Do they get chopped up? Also what's the fastest way to exterminate bats? What benefits do bats have on our ecosystem all they seem to do is spread diseases?

Bats are either struck by the blades or die from barotrauma (damage to their lungs caused by a sudden pressure drop). They don't really get chopped up because the blades are go big, so it's like getting hit by a car I imagine.

I don't exterminate bats so can't help you with that! This can tell you how to exclude them from your property http://www.batcon.org/resources/for-specific-issues/bats-in-buildings.

Bats provide a ton of services like insect control, pollination, seed dispersal etc. It's been estimated that bats are worth billions of dollars annually as agricultural pest control. http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=2743. So they are pretty important!

Ah, so they are kinda like bees. Because bats are sonar sensitive could you possibly set up a sound signal that only bats could hear that would deter them from getting close to the wind turbines. Like having an invisible sound forcefield for bats?

Exactly! Bats are super important, just like bees are.

People have actually been testing an ultrasonic deterrent system for bats, but currently there is not one that is effective in reducing fatalities.

I just went to the AWEA meeting in Lansing, Michigan. I was hoping they would address the potential effects of the listing of the northern long-eared bat in that state. Michigan is trying to be a leader in wind energy, and the listing of the bat will put them under the same pressure as those of us who live in the Indiana bat range.

They did not address bats at all, and joking addressed wildlife during a talk about wind farm education. I submitted a question about bats that was never answered. I don't believe I was the only one there hoping that this would be addressed, either.

Do you have an opinion of the AWEA? Have you worked with them about education wind farm operators on the regulations behind compliance to the ESA for endangered bats?

And lastly, what is your opinion on the listing of the northern long-eared bat, and what do you think of the potential 4(d) ruling?

I haven't worked very closely with AWEA, but have talked to the CANWEA people more (I'm a Canadian!). My encounters with CANWEA have mostly been positive. They seem to genuinely care about the issue.

I'm not sure what a 4(d) ruling is, but if it's about being declared endangered, I think it's a good thing. Northern Long-eared bats are being hit hard by white nose syndrome and need protection. These species are not heavily impacted by turbines, but have been killed by them. This is a form of additive mortality that needs to be considered.

Does this answer your question?

Sure! Sorry, I did not realize you were Canadian until after I asked about all of this US stuff.

Here is the potential 4(d) ruling:

http://www.fws.gov/midwest/news/765.html

Basically it gives many large companies (pipelines, etc) a pass during the summer to continue construction/habitat destruction if the northern is listed threatened.

I am actually a bat biologist myself. I was recently at the Midwest Fish & Wildlife Conference giving a presentation about the NLEB in which many USFWS members were present that may be responsible for deciding whether the NLEB should be listed as threatened or endangered in the US. I am hoping endangered for the sake of the species, although any listing is better than no listing. Luckily with the listing in Canada there is more of a chance in the US!

I really respect your work on wind farms and I hope some day to meet you at a conference.

hmmm...I don't know a ton about this, so it's hard to make an informed comment.

What I can say is that the maternity roosts used by bats are crucial to their survival. If companies consider that during development then fine I guess.

Do you go to NASBR? If so, come find me in Monterey!

I was at NASBR this year! I will hope to be at the one in Monterey, but we will see what my company is willing to spend on me. I am doing the conference rounds this year.

Do a presentation on your work!

I presented in Albany! were you there?

[deleted]

via hormones

I'm fascinated by bats and would love to put up a bat box at my house, but I have two concerns. 1) Is there a risk to me, my pets, or neighbors of diseases such as rabies? 2) Could WNS develop in the box (everything I've read suggest it's likely a fungus that causes it - if there is newer research stating otherwise, please let me know) and if it does, would there be a way to clean it to make it safe for the bats again?

Living in close proximity to wildlife always has some risks. The bats in North America transmit very few diseases, and of those Rabies is the worst. However, the natural rate of rabies in bats is very low (<1%:see this release about a paper I worked on). So the chances of having a sick one in the box is low, and the chances of that sick bat transmitting it to you or your pets is even lower, just use common sense if you encounter a sick animal.

WNS is caused by a cold-loving fungus that lives and thrives in the moist, cool caves that bats hibernate in. Bat boxes are not the right environment for it. Besides, bats will use the box during the summer and not during hibernation.

SO by all means put up a bat house and enjoy the benefits!

I read in a primary publication a while back that Geomyces destructans likely came from Europe, but those bat populations may not be susceptible. Any recent word on whether WNS has jumped to Europe? Has it continued to spread at an alarming rate into other areas of North America as well?

You're right, most of the literature I'm aware of suggests that the fungus (now called Pseudogymnoascus destructans) came from Europe. It's found all over the place there (for example see this paper), but it still appears that it doesn't affect them in the same way (see this paper)

Yes, it it still spreading rapidly across North America. There's a great figure in this paper. It's pretty concerning!

• How does a regular day for you go ?
• Tell me one of the coolest methods by which you have monitored Bat migration ?
• And have you thought about changing your handle to batgirl ?

Well right now I trying to write my dissertation, so it's mostly spent reading papers, analyzing data, and writing (ah the glamorous life of a grad student!). The fun stuff happens when you are out collecting data...for me that involved searching for bat carcasses under turbines, or looking for hoary bats in trees, or catching bats in mist nets at night...great fun!

We tried to use geolocators (a device that logs light levels to help you pinpoint an animal in space) to learn about hoary bat migration. It was really exciting, but you have to recover the tag to get the data. The year we went back to get the tags the field site in Manitoba was completely destroyed by flooding and the bats and their roosts were not there. GPS tags are getting smaller, almost small enough for my species! exciting times!

I'm sure batgirl is taken :)

This is a very specific field. "Saving bats from wind turbines". How did you get into it and what did you do in your undergrad?

I did an undergrad in Conservation Biology and during that time I got a job as a field assistant catching bats. I did that for a few years and then decided to do my Masters, just as people started finding dead bats under turbines....and here I am today :)

What is the life of a grad student like? Compared to undergraduate?

Some of that depends on whether you are doing a course-based masters or a research-based masters or whether you are doing a PhD. In general, there's a lot more independence and a much larger emphasis on comprehension and higher-level thinking. Does that make sense?

Have you ever heard of PhD comics? Check it out, they are super well done and will give you a funny insight into life as a grad student.

There's also /r/GradSchool and /r/AskAcademia

Were you always interested in bats?

I always been an animal over and thought bats were cool, but didn't get super hooked until I worked with them during my undergrad. The are pretty great up close and personal. So much personality! And ridiculously cute. Seriously.

Can we use the energy from flapping bat wings to power wind turbines?

that might be challenging...anyone have design plans for bat harnesses?

Can you be our new Unidan?

Big shoes to fill!

Make a fucking book about all this and sell it to me, please?

You could buy this book: Bat Evolution, Ecology, and Conservation. I co-authored a chapter in it. Or you could wait and get one of the other two books that are coming out this year.

I can wait, please pm me when you have Them, as Ebook please

I'm not sure when they are coming out or if they will be in ebook format. Keep your eyes peeled.