mtnboy888

This is a common view, that it is all just the result of depression. It used to be that 80% of medical doctors used to agree. Now it is almost the inverse.

This statement is ridiculous for so many reasons. The two big ones being 1) stevewalton1234 offers no evidence (much like doctors who make similar statements) and 2) even if it were true, depression is a debilitating disease! Saying something is "just" a physical manifestation of depression exhibits a staggering lack of knowledge and thought about what depression is. Furthermore it shows a contempt for people who aren't exactly like yourself. Wake the fuck up asshole. Depression is as valid of a disease as cancer.

Absolute certainty about something not well understood is a sure sign of a closed minded simpleton. Whether intelligent or not, the person really needs to feel like everything fits into their worldview. The alternative is too scary. (Can you say pushy bible thumper or trump supporter?)

Do not let the stevewalton1234's of the world upset you if you suffer from this!!

I used to agree with Dr certainty. Then I awoke one beautiful spring morning, during one of my most content periods in life, feeling dizzy and weak. That morning was day one of a nightmare.

No one who knows me would believe that this is a depression driven malady. I am the most positive and buoyant person you will find. Nothing will ever keep me down. (Although, this affliction put me in a dark place from about the 6 month mark through the second year).

Stevewalton1234, you sound like the kind of idiot that thinks the bible is right because the bible says so. You are entitled to that opinion, but unless you've proven it scientifically, or lived it, then I reject you as being too simple to really get your brain around this.

It is good news indeed that I will likely never get to hear the good doctor "Steve" declare something like that in person. I would end up beating his fucking eyes shut and sacrificing my ability to help people with disabilities through my non-profit work. Sadly, the moment I read that comment, I'd have said "Fuckit" and done it anyway.

I am mostly better after six long years of relentless work and exceptionally clean living and determined effort. I realize I am one of the rare, lucky ones.

The trick? Don't believe anyone who says they know for sure what's going on, and don't let the fuckers get you down?

The medical profession is full of wonderful people. However, there is very little that we know, and very much that we don't know. The medical profession has a lot of people who are unable to say it when they don't know something. I think that is mostly because patients expect them to know.

Stevewalton1234: FTFY! I would welcome a response from you. I am well versed in this topic, and not afraid to debate another, be they ignorant or educated. IDGAF if you are head of medicine at Harvard, I will pull your fucking pants down. Bring it!

Good work Doctor. "I stopped reading at...". Excellent effort! Great excuse to ignore the points I make. How brave of you. (snort)

Also, thanks for underlining the exact point I was making with that line discussing how much of medicine is guesswork. The statement was hyperbole, but feel free to get hung up on it if your brain lacks the ground clearance to get over that little bump.

Do ALL depressed patients do better with SSRI's. Are there none who experience no benefit? Are there none who actually suffer from their use? Come on buddy, hang in there. Use your little thinker. Read perhaps?

Do those RCT's talk about the long-term effects. Do they explain how SSRI's actually cause the benefit? I'm listening.

Lastly, my doctor friends both were quite honest with me in that it was most likely not a virus or bacteria, and instead probably mental, or neurological. I was grateful for their input, and still do not deny it may be related to depression or something similar.

That still doesn't make me a liar. That still does not invalidate the experience! And it most definitely does not make me worthy of the contempt you show me and these other human beings.

My assertion stands unopposed: You don't actually know. Imagine my surprise.

TLDR: Dr. Thrwaway's mind is slammed shut AND he is an asshole. You might be right douchebag, but that doesn't change what a chickenshit you are!

Cardiologist: Excellent.

Well Dr. thrwaway, here are my thoughts:

In this thread, and others, you make a number of good points, that all reasonably point in the direction of ME/CFS being bullshit, particularly for those of us who frequently apply the Occam's Razor principal. What you fail to do, however, is concede the possibility that there may be other reasonable explanations for them. I'll point to a few.

No doubt, a number of hypochondriacs, addicts, and those with mental afflictions make up the population who get diagnosed with this catchall syndrome. Does that exclude the possibility that a number of that population is experiencing real symptoms?

I have three problems with your view, as evidenced by all the comments and responses made by you. The first is that you do not know for sure that all of this is due to depression, much less that it is "imaginary" as you've asserted. The second is that you (at various times) intimate that people in this predicament suffer from a character flaw (assuming it actually is depression). Lastly, you have indicated your opinion that we are all liars. How noble and reasoned of you.

I happen to think (see, this is my opinion, I am not guessing while asserting a fact under the disguise of expertise) that this is an affliction of people who take poor care of themselves. I was in that category. I took care of my family and my very stressful business, not my body. For that, I cursed myself with several avoidable, classically American afflictions. I believe that whether this is psychological or biological, your ability to fend it off is weakened. That doesn't make us liars.

"the problem is that when you tell me you don't want antidepressants and all you want is percocets/lortab/heroin, it's hard for me to take you seriously."

I realize my experiences and the people with whom I interact do not necessarily represent the norm. However, I have yet to meet a doctor who isn't way too eager to offer me opiates to get me out the door. I have never asked for them and had them refused. But I regularly refuse them and they are almost always offered (along with MMJ). I have a high pain tolerance (and frequent pain) due to a handful of injuries sustained in my younger years caused by accidents, hubris, and in one case: violence. I'd rather gut it out, than plug up my intestines and curse myself to a 1 to 3 day headache. That said, if so many people are coming to you for opiates, I can see why you might be predisposed to considering your patients liars. (no doubt people lie all the time). You are still wrong if you mistakenly ignore someone in pain. I get it, it is tough to tell. Doctors are only human (many of whom would be surprised to learn that).

I and most of the people I know who fall into this category hate opiates (I think the diagnosis of CFS or ME or anything else is bullshit, since the medical profession doesn't actually know what's going on, any name is useless). Opiates make the fatigue worse! Yet, some people just want the pain to stop, and I can't fault that. And yes, I concede that some hopeless souls, may prefer to just be stoned. Nonetheless, you insult those of us who have no interest in drugs, and you harm those who need them.

"The fact that fibromyalgia is mostly a disease of middle class white women in America (and is pretty much unrecognized as a disease elsewhere in the world) tells you all you need to know about it"

These are the words of the closed-minded. When combined with your assertion that medicine is based on science, not feels, it reeks of bullshit. The scientific method requires the the intellectual honesty to take data as it comes, not declare victory for your opinion when you find the piece of information that confirms your suspicions about something. That's basing your stance on feels buddy. While your opinion is valid in that it fits the available data, others are equally valid. For instance, could it be that these populations are exposed to similar environmental factors such as chemicals, or foods (biological angle)? Also, how do you explain me? I am successful, and well-adjusted (oh yeah, and an old white guy).

I happen to have the privilege of spending time, frequently, with a number of notable intellects by belonging to an informal club that gathers to discuss a wide range of topics. Inclusion requires expertise and success in your chosen field, and the ability to rationally discuss any topic without rancor. Not surprisingly, there are doctors present. A couple of them happen to have led national associations in their respective specialties, and two of them are internationally renowned.

What I have learned from two of those doctors in that group is that the human body is far too complex to categorically say that there are no biological causes to this malady (or run of the mill depression for that matter). Your assertions of certainty lack credibility against the opinions and explanations provided by those people, I don't care who you are.

The truth is that your noble profession deals with a subject far too complex for individual human beings to master. Even if all the answers existed, scientific certainty, in every case, with every patient is simply not feasible (financially or otherwise). Most diagnoses are educated guesses, as are most treatments. I think you know this, or do you see yourself as a heart mechanic?

It is the same with medications. Dosages, efficacy, interactions & any other consideration with respect to drugs is an educated guess that usually assumes the patient exists somewhere within 2 standard deviations of the mean. (Not news to you I'm sure)

In another part of this thread you intimate that you can test all the biological systems and declare them "normal", and thus prove that this is an "imaginary" disease. Balderdash! Do you mean to tell me you can rule out malfunctions of the nervous system? With synapses in the brain? Come on. Educate me.

I have already conceded that this may be a purely psychological phenomenon. That does not make it imaginary. That does not invalidate their pain. The arrogance you show on this topic is toxic! It harms good people to be told by an "expert" that they are faking something, either for the purpose of seeking drugs or attention. I have all the attention I need (and then some). I defy anyone to suggest a motive for me to have impeded my success and neglected my family while spending enormous sums and suffering humiliation by lying about this. It is absurd.

I have enormous credibility through my professional reputation, social standing and community work. No one would tell me to my face they thought what you think, but I could sense it. That was painful and frustrating.

Too many doctors pretend they know more than they do. They use their medical license to lie and pretend to know more than they possibly could. Most doctor's use of language around prescriptions dishonestly depicts the actual scientific knowledge surrounding the drugs. And, just between us, you can admit that most drugs work on the placebo principal, or by accident. Antidepressants are a great example. They gave me some to treat this (I was lied to about the direct purpose - they told me it was to help my headaches). It should be a crime to put that shit in someone's body, given the frequent, awful experiences they can cause, especially given that everyone admits that science has no idea why or how it works or doesn't with certain people.

Until the brain is better understood, none of you can credibly say anything with absolute certainty given the obvious link between mental state and physical health. And no one can medically explain the obvious correlation. I assert that too many people assume a one way causation.

The medical profession used to treat "Hysteria" in women by finger fucking the patient (until a doctor with a tired hand invented the vibrator). Today we understand that the "Hysteria" was a number of different treatable things. We laugh at those silly old timey doctors. But the words of many doctors at the time lacked the humility to make it clear they were guessing.

Medical experts also thought lobotomies were appropriate treatment for mental illness. Didn't 4 out of 5 doctors recommend Camels for your health?

Make no mistake. By calling this "imaginary" you are absolutely continuing the tradition!!!

"Dude, I'm not prescribing you opioids for your imaginary illness, fuck off."

Your use of language tells me you are a younger cardiologist. i hope that you are a compassionate one and open your mind to the possibility that not all of these people are full of shit. Otherwise you are ill-prepared for what is coming. Your own fallibility will sneak up on you and crush you.

You may be right in that it could be completely psychological, maybe even a unique form of depression. You are absolutely fucking wrong to dismiss people as liars simply because, in your arrogance, you can't explain it within the paradigm of your training. I realize you are making an educated guess (all you really can do), but to work from a rule of thumb that errs on the side of assuming everyone in this category is a shithead, you are blowing it.

TLDR: You state educated guesses as medical fact and paint an enormous population with that broad brush. You cheapen your profession. You insult the human beings your job is to aid. Get off your high horse Doctor! Your profession, and you in particular are simply not that good!!

Thank you for the question. I am eager to respond and engage with you.

I'm in line buying groceries and would prefer a keyboard in order to discuss this, as your note touches a number of issues, all of which support the opinion that had me so fired up.

I'll respond shortly.

In the interim, would you let me know if you are a medical professional? Having a sense of your knowledge base will assist me I keeping my comments brief.

Thanks and talk to you soon.