I am Jon Rennie. Former Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarine Officer, CEO Peak Demand Utility Products, & Amazon bestseller/Author of “All In The Same Boat”. Ask me anything* about real leadership, nuclear weapons, nuclear powered submarines, t...

What are some ways to boost employee morale?

Simple things like asking how they are doing, remembering their birthday, thanking them for staying late, filling the break room with snacks and drinks, being present, giving them flexibility.

How long could a modern sub stay at sea if it had to? Presumably food and water are the primary factors.

Yes. Food, coffee, and toilet paper are the main problems. The fuel can last decades.

Note that coffee is a separate and distinct requirement. So true. Same for the aviation community. Anchors Aweigh!

So true! The coffee pots on the boat were fed from power from the vital bus. When everything shut off on the sub, the coffee kept going.

Why not bidets?

Haha. Good point!

This really is a good point. My former boat almost ran out of TP one deployment, we managed to stretch things out, the captain would not have been happy if we had had to leave station due to TP

Kimwipes.

So how long? A maximum must've been calculated

4-5 months if you load up enough stores.

A nuclear submarine is limited only by food, they use either reverse osmosis or an evaporator to make water and split water through electrolysis to make breathable oxygen. All waste pumped overboard.

Russian Bot or submariner? hmm

Since that so called UFO/UAP stories goes around from US Navy and US Air forces... Did you ever encounter, or do you know eny authentic story, that involves unidentified submersible objects, or USO? Apparently Russians have some official reports from there submarines commanders...

I was a sonar tech on a submarine. There are a lot of strange sounds in the ocean. Especially in the Arctic. Ice makes a lot of noise and a lot of weird noises. I listened to the ice sounding like a crying baby. I heard it sound like a lawn mower.

There are tons of difficult to explain sounds out there. We recorded several and tracked a few closely.

Snapping shrimp!

I didn't have any of those experiences, sadly. That would have made a great sea story!

How would you suggest a subordinate deal with a boss who is defensive?

The way I see it is that you only have one life and it's short. I highly suggest you discuss (in private) with the boss that has this behavior and explain how it affects you and your performance. One of three things will happen. They will either change for the better, not change at all, or begin to make you life tougher for bringing it up. Once you know their reaction, you make the decision to stay or go. Don't be a victim. Do what you need to do to be happy. Go where you are celebrated not just tolerated.

Yes! Thank you! As a group, we’ve tried talking with her but she just got super defensive. We are so sad because we thought she was going to be a great boss.

That's too bad.

About real leadership - Trump said we have super duper missiles.
Do we have super duper missiles?

Yes. They're yuge.

Living in Space is somewhat similar to a submarine in that you have a group of people in a confined metal tube. Given that we are getting close to larger vehicles and journeys, possibly 9 month trips to Mars, what lessons can we learn from submarine life when thinking about crew space, routines, staving off boredom?

Great question. I think submariners are the ones that should be selected for long missions. I mean, you have to stay busy to stave off boredom. We trained hard and studied for qualifications. There was so much to do that we never got too bored (except standing watch in the engine room - that was dull)

Do submarines from different nations ever acknowledge each other ? I would imagine if US and Nato subs would bump into each other, there would be some banter, but if lets say US encounter Russian or China sub by accident (or not an accident) will there be some sort of exchange? Trade foods? Maybe movies?

I was a crewman on a submarine for a short time and there is definitely an inherent respect submariners have for each other regardless of nation. I remember one of my instructors telling us a story about how he ended up in the same room as some Russian sailors in uniform while overseas (I don't remember specifics) and he was able to trade his submarine warfare pin (the metal one they wear on their chest) with one of the russian submariners for his submarine pin. I can't imagine many other circumstances where non-allied military forces would consensually trade earned uniform items like that.

It's a special community.

There is a true brotherhood between all submariners. We have respect for each other even if we are on different sides. I think it would also be fun for submarine crews from other countries to get to share stories

One of the best managers I had said he had one job when he was hiring people. Making sure we don't hire an asshole. His belief was one bad apple would do more to undermine the team than anything else. Do you believe that? And what do you do when you inherit a team that has an asshole or two?

Great advice but sometimes (even when you try your best) you hire an asshole. Yes. A rotten apple will spoil the bunch. Get rid of these people.

Hi Jon, what are those elements of movies and pop culture that are not true about working/living in a submarine (especially nuclear power ones) that you always wanted to clarify?

The always show the ocean bottom. In truth, the ocean is very deep and don't get that close to the bottom ever...unless something goes wrong

We used to have submarines launching nukes (ballistic missile subs), then we had subs powered by nukes (submarines with nuclear reactors) and you were the officer of a submarine powered by nukes that launches nukes. Where do you think the future of submarine technology will take us?

Probably submerged drones and autonomous subs. The crew was always the limiting factor.

Also can you describe the most interesting in-combat point of your career or has your career been relatively peaceful?

I was at sea during the 1991 Soviet coup attempt, known as the August Coup. It was a failed attempt made by Communist leaders of the Soviet Union to take control of the country from Mikhail Gorbachev. We didn't know who had control of nukes. That was pretty scary.

Once the training is done and it’s time to get the team to act How do you get them to “take the plunge” and try something they don’t feel comfortable with? Similarly, if they’re trying a new task they’re not good at and they fail, how do you get them to scrape themselves up and put themselves in a vulnerable position again?

Such a good question!! I cover this in my new book. I have a chapter called "Run your ship like a Captain" where I talk about how the captain always pressure-tested us. He wanted us to fail in a controlled environment so we could learn from our mistakes. Failure is the most powerful teaching tool. It is raw and emotional and we need failure to learn. I have a sub-chapter called "let them fail" which talks about how my first CO yelled at me for not letting my trainee fail (and learn)

sub-chapter

Ha

I do what I can

What's your favorite type of taco? And do you agree providing employees tacos will improve productivity?

All tacos are amazing and yes!

Could you maybe expound on the level of danger of operating an older submarine versus a modern one in regards to technology/navigation, anything about how they operated back then that today seems pretty wild?

After the Navy lost the USS Thresher, they put in place a program called SUBSAFE which made submarines much safer. Prior to that, submarining was notoriously dangerous. Still, one wrong move and you can lose a modern submarine.

How would you inspire people from different backgrounds in these times of high controversy to work together harmoniously and to put their differences aside?

Leadership is a people business. You need to get to know you team. In the Navy, we came from all walks of life and were locked in a metal tube for 3 months. We all had to get along is we wanted to complete our mission and return home to our families

Thank you for you reply. When faced by something of that nature, such as navigating a submarine or a space shuttle, I do agree with you that people will put aside their differences to achieve the goal of safely reaching the end point but once they are off the ship or plane petty differences will take over. How do we inspire these polemic individuals to put aside their polarizing views permanently and work together for the bigger goal? I am sure you had to deal with many people of different cultural backgrounds in the Navy with strong ties to their roots with different views of what America is about (for example a Southerner views America differently compared to a Hawaiian). How do we get those individuals in a non-military environment to put aside their individual desires and to focus on the bigger goal? Also how do we cherish their backgrounds and promote respect?

It can happen but you have to align the team towards a common mission. In most organization, there is so much internal conflict that nothing gets done. When you remind people that the "enemy" is outside the four walls and people believe it, they are less likely to point toward their fellow employees as the problem. You have to help employees identify their "tribe" as the team. Plus, you can't put up with ANY behavior that doesn't treat EVRY employee with respect. Respect is a big part of it.

This is so true, the Arab historian and philosopher Ibn Khaldun wrote in the 13th century that tribes and nations fall apart when people start to identify more strongly with the sub-groups than the larger group he called this necessary quality "asabiyyah" which is usually translated as something like "social cohesion".

I like that!

How many pings?

One ping only.

One ping, Vasily.

Yes!

What are your thoughts on nuclear deterrents, think they are necessary or just an unnecessary threat?

I think it worked when there was two relatively stable "nation states" pointing nukes at each other. I'm not sure how it works with unstable regimes.

As an enlisted sailor bound for surface ships, how can lessons from an officer on subs apply to me?

Even as an officer, you start as a NUB. A Non Useful Body. I had to get qualified to earn the respect of my shipmates. The more you know, the more valuable you are to your crew. You also have to have thick skin. I talk a lot of that in my new book. Your shipmates are always testing you to see if you are tough or fragile. A sense of humor definitely helps

New Useless Bitch, you mean?

Maybe

A close family member was on Nuclear Subs and got out of the Navy last year. Whenever anyone asks him about it he always says, "Check Wikipedia." My question for you: is my family member being a smart-ass or is most of the work conducted really that top secret?

Side question: How does it smell down there?

Thanks!

I think he is just trying to stay out of trouble. There are a lot of secrets and we are the "silent service" for a reason. Yes it smells. Like farts and diesel fumes. You really notice it when you smell "fresh" air for the first time after being at sea several months.

Yup...first time you do laundry away from the boat...whew.

it never comes out.

How was the food on the submarine?

They get that part right. The food is pretty good on board...but the pizza was never all that great.

Is there land on the north pole, or can you drive a submarine around under there? Or is it frozen solid? What's up with the north pole?

No land. Just ice and some guy with elves.

We break through the ice up there all the time!! Search for ICEX and you will see how it works. I was up there in 2004.

So...then you know the inconvenient truth about Santa....

I can't talk about it

You said no actual secrets, so what is the most secretive sounding thing that people might not know, that you're allowed to tell us?

I've seen Russian ships.

I heard this quote recently and I was wondering what are your thoughts and comments about it?

"If service is beneath you, leadership is beyond you."

This is true. Leadership is a people business. People want to see that you care. You are on stage 24/7 so the boss that is humble and is willing to listen and take action to make life better for the team, will be loved and respected. Leaders eat last.

thoughts on unidentified submerged objects that move around in ways conventional underwater craft can't?

Never saw one but...I believe the truth is out there.

What are the list of qualities of a leader for you?

A leader must be present. They must take the time to listen to employees and consider their input. But, they also have to be able to clearly communicate the organization's goals and objectives and motivate the team to get there. Leadership is always about motivating a group of people to accomplish a goal.

What do you think?

Sounds perfect to me, happily I'm good at self motivation but the bosses I keep finding tend to then expect more than the 100% I already give.

I'm not someone that volunteers for everything just enjoy doing my job (electronic security engineer) right. But once the boss repeatedly pushes I just walk away.

I love that!

I knew a guy who worked with nuclear ordinance. He said occasionally they would hit bombs with a deadblow hammer to assist with lining them up for the tubes. This seems dangerous, and the guys known for...jacking with people....have you seen something like that happen?

He's jacking with you. Who's going to hit one of them with a hammer? Not me.

His argument was that if something went wrong, it wouldn't really be his problem, as he would be....particulated..

Yep. He'd have blue eyes. One blew that way and the other one one blew that way.

Sooo gonna use that haha.

Feel free!

Yep. He'd have blue eyes. One blew that way and the other one one blew that way.

Leaders worth following don't use recycled Challenger jokes. Just saying.

Ok

Can you offer some tips as to what someone can do to develop good leadership skills?

To be a great leader, you have to practice leadership. Start with volunteer work outside of your job. Also, spend time observing leaders you work with. Write down what they do right and what you didn't like. Learn from both of these. Emulate the good things and avoid the bad things. Finally, read books and listen to podcasts on leadership. I run a podcast called Deep Leadership where I interview leaders from all industries.

Why are most of the navy nukes I've met introverted, slightly autistic weirdos? 😂

We were locked in a tube for months on end??

Do you ever have people on the sub who are not claustrophobic at first, become claustrophobic over time. Or just can't take not seeing the sun for long periods of time? What happens in those situations?

Not that I recall.

This is a legit thing. When I hired on at my most recent job, new employees were at 75% or more ex-nukes. I was chatting with a lifer, and another person came up to talk to us. This person was the nuke prototype...awkward, nerdy, but clean cut from the military. When that person walked away, I looked at the lifer and said, "That's a nuke." He started laughing because that's all I needed to say. And yes...we were both nukes ourselves. :)

Yep. I always said I was a recovering nuke.

This is a funny phenomena, but in reality it is a failure of the nuclear training pipeline and its leadership. From my experience, their strategy in personnel problems is incredibly reactive, not proactive. Their mental health is not addressed until it affects the sailor's ability to get through training or their performance suffers.

Additionally, most of those kids are too smart for their own good, where nuke school is their first attempt at application of their intelligence. And when they stumble, they don't know how to properly deal with the inevitable feelings of inadequacy that they've never felt before.

I think when they started pushing technical rating versus leadership ability, things when a bit sideways.

How often does the average nuclear weapon/ICBM actually get maintained or replaced? I've heard all sorts about the systems being basically unchanged since the 80s. The idea of 40 year old nukes just chilling on active deployments is a bit... Alarming, in a way.

I've been out for 27 years, so I don't know...but they are still using the same missile design.

Which nuc school class were you? I was 8903, and I’m out 27 years, too.

8906? I think. I showed up to Orlando in June of 89

Right. How long did you serve for? Must have had a few years to hold an officer rank.

Most interesting/funny event during deployment?

I was an officer for 5 years right after college. Funniest thing was the most junior sailor on board mistakingly calling the Captain a "motherfucker." I tell the story in my new book. I still laugh about it.

Wouldn't part of leadership be calling 'em like you see 'em? He may have been right. :)

Yep. Turned out the kid was right. The Captain was trying to come through a hatch that was secured for a drill. The Captain eventually commended the kid for standing his ground.

What makes you think it was a "mistake"? Captains are notorious mf'ers.

I witnessed it. Kid had no idea who was on the other side of the hatch. And he was.

What’s your take on the media coverage on UFO sightings lately? I hear some of the ufos fly in and out of the ocean and there have been stories during the cold war of submariners seeing unusually fast moving objects underwater similar to the ufos in the air.

I never saw or heard anything like that. It's interesting that all this is coming out in the public. I have no idea about it though. Sorry.

What got u started into becoming a Nuclear Ballistic submarine missile officer? Sounds really cool ngl

I grew up hearing stories of submariners in WWII and was fascinated. The Cold War was in full swing when I was in grade school and I knew I wanted to get on a submarine. It was like being in space without having to get strapped on to a missile.

Wow that's amazing , it's crazy how you've come this far

Becoming a submariner was a childhood dream that became a reality. That doesn't happen often. I was both lucky and blessed.

My husband was a nuclear machinist mate on fast attack subs starting in the early 80's. He now supports the mission as a civilian at high level. The challenges to our military at this time is massive, especially for the sub fleet. It's a critical thing that knowledgeable folks stay and help, but it certainly doesn't pay like the private sector does.

Did you consider going into the civil service to continue your career journey? What factors made you leave and move to the private sector? Was it strictly financial, or something else?

Cool AMA. Thanks for doing it.

Thank you! After 7 patrols on the USS Tennessee, I realized that this was going to be my life - spending months at sea. I began to notice how many of my shipmates were divorced and missed their kids birth and Christmas's away from family. I realized it was a very tough life if you want to have relationships. So, I decided to hang up my uniforms and go into business.

I hear you there. We raised our first two kids while he was deployed for an average 7 months out of a year. Fast attacks are insanely scheduled. He ended up decomming 3 boats, Finback, Whale and Gurnard before he got out. His first boat was the Louisville.

Glad he got out, and his civil service job making sure the fleet is prepared is great. He has his hands in all sorts of new technology that he is incredibly passionate about. No going to sea anymore, but still engaged in the mission he believes in. The Navy really needs forward thinking people to keep everything moving. As I said, he could certainly make more money in the private sector, but I am proud that he has stayed in the mix, even if it's civil service and not active duty.

Thank him for me. No easy task!

Thoughts on Russian subs?

They are huge.

Best submarine movie? Das Boot or something else?

Hunt for Red October is my favorite.

A follow-up...setting the Caterpillar system aside, how realistic was Red October in portraying capabilities/normal life on a sub?

No movie shows you how boring standing watch in the engine room can sometimes be. If you want to simulate it, turn on your car and lift the hood. Now, watch the engine for six hour taking random temperature reading every half hour. That's was normal life on a submarine.

I was stationed at Subase Bangor my entire career. What boat were you on ? I was a Missile Technician on the USS Nevada (Gold) in the 1990s.

Tennessee Gold 734. First East Coast Ohio class.

How would you rate the accuracy of the movie Crimson Tide?

Better than some sub movies...but the premise was all wrong. It could never happen but it makes a good Hollywood story.

Do service members in the sub ever suddenly become claustrophobic? If so, what are the protocols in place to deal with that?

I don't think you volunteer for this kind of duty is you are claustrophobic. I never saw anyone freak out while I was onboard.

But have you ever seen someone develop agoraphobia shortly before returning?

Edit: I'm only half joking. Have you ever seen someone become so used to it that returning is intimidating, almost as if they've been institutionalized?

Not really. We just wanted pizza, beer, and our girls...no necessarily in that order.

We had a guy "snap" while on mission once. Not so much claustrophobia as just a mental breakdown. He was going through a divorce at home, custody fight etc and our underway was a stressful one. He tried to crush his head with a hammer in the machinery room. A couple of us tackled him and took the hammer away while another guy ran to get the doc. Doc put him on some sedatives and placed 24 hr watches scheduled to keep an eye on him until we could schedule a med evac.

Oh crap. Not good.

Yeah scary and sad. He was a very good A ganger, one of our best. He'd recently made E5 and the ordeal derailed his career completely. Got disqualified from sea duty over it.

That sucks.

[deleted]

I don't know what will happen but I won't ever do it. The things I know that are secret will stay secret.

For nuclear powered submarines, how often does refueling takes place and how cumbersome the process will be?

I think it is around 15 years and it's a significant process. It takes a long time.

The US’s Nuclear Naval vessels boast immaculate nuclear-safety statistics. Do you think the safe operation of these reactors is tied more closely to their design or the disciplined personnel who manage them?

What are your thoughts on expanding nuclear power generation in the US and overcoming public opinion on its hazards?

Honestly, I think it's both design and discipline. i do think we need to look at nuclear power again for a sustainable base energy load.

You ever see any UAP phenomenon?

Nope. Sorry. That would be a great story though.

I imagine submariners go a long time without seeing sunlight. Does that mess with your body or mind?

Yes. No lie. I missed the sun, sky, and fresh air. I always volunteer for officer of the deck duty when we were surfaced.

Do you believe the quality of life disparity between officer and enlisted is warranted? Has that disparity ever become an issue with the crew?

On the boat, there wasn't much separation between enlisted, senior enlisted, and officers. We ate the same food, had the same size racks, wore the same uniforms, suffered together, stood watch together. I always had deep respect for the technical knowledge of my teams on board. I always tried to stand up for them. We never had an issue on our crew.

What movie would you say is the most accurate (Das Boot, U-571, etc.)? Is there movie with a small detail you loved that only people who worked on a Sub would catch?

hunt for Red October when the USS Dallas did an emergency blow. That was real - no CGI.

I was an ICBM Crew Commander in the Air Force a few years back. My biggest challenge was actually how to leave this job and enter a new career.

How did you cope with the hamster wheel effect of the mission at large and how did you communicate your skill set to potential employers who have absolutely no idea what it takes to do this mission?

Your presence and reliability IS the mission. Other fields have tangible metrics that they can judge success by- x number sorties flown, % budget saved, etc. In the nuclear field, we don’t really have that luxury. Other fields- contracting, maintenance, acquisitions- those have pretty easy to translate skills for the civilian world. As a missileer, you’re meticulously trained in several different facets of operations- be they weapon system technical aspects, code handling, EWO, but your most successful day is a day that nobody hears about your day. I found that this was a very difficult aspect to explain to potential employers when I left the Air Force- my biggest accomplishments I had on my OPR that made total sense to someone in the nuclear field, had very limited applicability to those outside that career field, even to people in the wider Air Force community, they have no frame of reference for what it is you actually do. I really had to get creative to explain what something like code change is and what it means to successfully run it. Offering statistics that are self explanatory in other fields are completely worthless in this role. You can say ‘I pulled 200 alerts’ but unless you break down what that entails, it’s challenging to get potential employers to understand exactly how these skills are relevant for the job you’re applying for, even though they’re super important unteachable skills that different organizations can really benefit from. You have to go all in on the soft skill fit, but that only goes so far and it’s exceedingly difficult to get your foot in the door or have a place take a chance on you. It was a very difficult transition period and many other former missileers I served with had exactly this same problem.

How did your personnel in your career field handle separation and getting this extraordinarily specific skill set to transfer?

Bonus question if you have time: In a sub does the entire crew have to be on PRP? Was it only those who have to do EWO stuff?

The hard truth is, not many companies will understand what you did in the military. there is so much ignorance about what we do and it's mostly based on what people see in the movies. The thing is, you can do you best to try and make your military experience sound more "civilian-like" but at the end of the day, you really have to prove it. When I go to my first company, I had the lowest engineering job in the company but in 5 years, I was promote to plant manager. It's really all about how you perform once you are out that counts. I don't know PRP or EWO.

If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be, and why?

A busch. It's cool.

How did you cope in the beginning, when you saw potential in an individual or team but morale was under pressure? pardon the pun

Every time a take over a new organization, I ask 3 questions to every employee. What is working? What needs to get fixed? If you were in my shoes, what would you do first? These three questions help me quickly understand what's really going on. Once I know that, I can start working on the things that are bringing morale down.

Does being good at hedge mazes affect your Skee-Ball game?

It can't hurt.

What do the transmedium UAPs look like underwater?

Like a North Atlantic right whale

A question on leadership i guess, if you’re a supervisor with a shitty boss, how could you inspire or boost employee moral?

I've been in that situation. You just have to do your best to shield your team from the crappy boss. You also are responsible for being your team's voice and confront that boss.

What was the biggest challenge you faced in your role as a leader in the military?

I had a 6 month labor strike at a plant I was managing. My bosses took a hard line against the union and the union fought back. I was caught in the middle.

I'm beginning my commission as a medical officer with the USAF next year. I sometimes worry that an enlisted or an officer that had prior enlistment service may not respect me for not having had that same experience.

Can you speak to interactions you've had with commissioned and noncommissioned officers? Aside from being in top-form with respext to my discipline, how else might I best earn that respect from those with an enlisted background?

-Cheers!

Great question. I talk about it in my new book (allinthesameboatbook.com). You earn respect by giving respect and working your tail off to become "qualified" in the minds of your teammates. As a young officer, I led a very complex maintenance activity on the nuclear reactor. It was the hardest thing I had ever done in my life, but the crew saw my dedication and effort, and I earned their respect after it was over.

Does a submarine stink?

Like butts and diesel fumes

Have you played Cold Waters?

http://killerfishgames.com/games/cold-waters

Nope. Sorry. Played Halo with my boys though.

What was the most effective way or ways to keep morale high on a submarine deployment? Those things go months underway without surfacing.

Honestly, the Captain kept us so busy, we didn't think about anything but getting through the day and getting to our rack. I think we kept morale high on our own. Submariner are notorious pranksters and smack-talkers. We kept ourselves amused.

Are you familiar with Jocko Willink's books on leadership, such as "Extreme Ownership" and if so, are there points where you differ? I really like books about leadership by accomplished leaders, if I were to buy only one of your books, which would you recommend?

Jocko's books are great but think about this, he is leading a group of highly motivated Navy SEALs. Try leading a group of sailors that have been to sea for three months are just want to go home. I love SEALs but there are so many other leadership books written by military leaders that are probably more realistic. But Jocko is right about one thing, a leader can make the diffrence between a winning and losing team. I think you will like my new book "All in the Same Boat"

Why are Marines so much cooler?

They eat crayons.