My short bio:

Hey guys! My name is Ken and last week a video my son made of me hit the front page. Twenty years ago I was injured at work and left a quadriplegic. I fell into gaming shortly after with Diablo and other Blizzard games, and now I stream on Twitch. Feel free to ask me anything about my injury, games or anything else.

My Proof: https://twitter.com/NoHandsKen/status/505753794773540864

I have my two sons here with me. Chriz, (aka Firztaid on Twitch) who got me up and streaming to begin with, and Jordan (aka Dexeh_ on Twitch) who made the video that got all over the internet. They are both mods of my stream chat.

My Twitch stream can be found here: http://www.twitch.tv/nohandsken/


Thank you for the questions everyone! This AMA died down for a while but I'll try to be back to answer more questions soon. I am also on Twitch streaming some more today.

Comments: 820 • Responses: 56  • Date: 

Hooligan1975864 karma

Jouse2?

Hi all, at Ken's approval, I work for the company that makes the the product he uses to control his computer, the Jouse2, and I am here to answer any questions regarding it. There's also a new version of the product, the Jouse3, that was released in May of this year.

No_Hands_Ken844 karma

The kind folks over at Jouse have sent Ken a Jouse3 which is on it's way. I want to thank them so much! - Ken - Jordan

needuhLee346 karma

why does Ken refer to himself in the 3rd person

Malice1982658 karma

"No_Hands_Ken".

Omnipotentatus228 karma

Indeed, probably has his son replying with Ken's answers.

No_Hands_Ken316 karma

Yeah I was trying to mark who replies but I dun goofed. - Jordan

LIGHTSpoxleitner38 karma

Most likely No Hands Ken's son is typing for him

No_Hands_Ken44 karma

Correct. - Jordan

No_Hands_Ken202 karma

Because his son who types for him can't grammar. - Jordan

No_Hands_Ken29 karma

Sorry, I am typing for my dad and trying to make sure I specify responses. - Jordan

popcan85632 karma

Hi, Ken.

My name is Reid. Remember me? My mother and I came to the island to visit you and your family a lot when I was younger, and I knew before I even saw your proof that this was you!!

Hope things are great for you, though they seem to be!

Edit: Hi, reddit.

No_Hands_Ken515 karma

Hey Reid! Yeah I remember you. Sheesh, how old are you now?

arkantosthedemigod307 karma

Ken i'm a regular at your stream and i'll post some of the most common questions so people won't ask these:

1: how does the jouse work?

2: what's your favorite character in a game

3: what's your favorite game

4: What's up with the nipple hype?

5: Are there any game genres you can't play but you wish you could?

6: NIPPLES OR MEATLOAF?

7: will diana ever prepare you meatloaf?

8: will we make another goblin?

9: what's your best character in diablo atm?

10: in the movie intouchables (it's about a quadriplegic), it's suggested they have to mannualy remove the poop out of the butt, Is this real or can you poop like a normal person?

11: is your steam working yet?

you should know who i am :)

No_Hands_Ken283 karma

  1. The Jouse works kind of like a joystick used by your mouth. You can sip/puff to click. - Jordan

  2. Favourite character in Diablo 3 is the Monk. In Diablo 2 it was the trap Assassin. In WoW it's the Restoration Druid. - Ken

  3. Diablo 3. I've been playing Diablo for 18 years.

  4. One of the streamers everytime I had my blanket down she would react to my nipples showing and so would everyone else! So I'd pull the blanket up and say "Stop checking out my nipples!" which was done in humour. - Ken

  5. There are a lot of games I can't play because of the lack of keyboard use such as EverQuest, Guild Wars and First Person Shooter games like Halo and games like that. - Ken

  6. I don't know what Meatloaf is. I know it's reference to a movie but I don't know what it means, so I'll go with Nipples just to be safe - Ken (Perhaps a Fight Club reference? - Jordan)

  7. I am gonna say I wish if I think I know what the viewers mean. She's a very wonderful woman. BUT she's married. - Ken

  8. Hahaha, I don't know. That was one of the funniest moments in my gaming history. Maybe some day. - Ken

  9. Zkinripper, hardcore season 3 PTR. - Ken

  10. I am gonna say both. It's called disimpacting/disempacting and I would like to see that movie. - Ken

  11. Me and my kids are going to work on that today because everybody wants to buy me these games to try out. - Ken

hauru87233 karma

Hey Ken! I'm not sure if this was asked already, but would you ever consider opening up a PO Box so your fans can write you letters or send you gifts?

No_Hands_Ken394 karma

I am going to do that tomorrow so fans can send me stuff. And that's weird. - Ken

Wyrmnax178 karma

How?

Particularly because you play a few games that need quick responses. How do you do it?

No_Hands_Ken213 karma

Basically I play games with a device called a Jouse. I sip to left click, puff to right click and other icons I have to manually click with the Jouse. - Ken

x1ndor147 karma

Hey Ken, I love your story and your stream.

How many viewers did you expect when you first started streaming, and how did you feel when the viewer count went into the thousands?

Cheers

No_Hands_Ken379 karma

Maybe thirty? I told Chriz (Firztaid) 30 or 50. When I was in the thousands I was in a loss for words and I had tears running down my face because I've never had that sort of reaction from that many people loving me and wanting the best for me. It made me feel incredible. - Ken

ScotleCyphez117 karma

What is your best memory from before the accident? What about since the accident?

Also, I love your stream. I always have it up while I work from home, it inspires me to keep going when I feel down :)

No_Hands_Ken178 karma

I think my favourite memory is when my son Chriztian was born. I did the birth myself and cut the cord and gave the baby to mom. Since the accident, first day streaming (~23 days ago) I was a bit anxious and scared but the reaction of the viewers gave me so much confidence. - Ken

Jimmylikebeans95 karma

Have you gotten into touch with any other streamers? it'd be cool to see you collaborate with some people.

Love the streams, man!

No_Hands_Ken182 karma

I actually played with Ducksauce yesterday for a couple hours and plans are in the making for playing with Swifty and other streamers. - Ken

JOKOman65 karma

Hey Ken I watch your stream everyday, the chat and you make it a great place to go to have fun. I just want to know: Has becoming a quadriplegic changed your views on life in any way?

No_Hands_Ken133 karma

Oh defanately it has. I've learned to be more patient, I am a lot more softer, not a hardened person. I feel like the Grinch, my heart keeps growing! - Ken

ScaldyOnionBag60 karma

What is your favourite dinosaur?

No_Hands_Ken96 karma

Stegosaurus. - Ken

Shanky78958 karma

Hey, Ken! Great to see you doing this AMA, thanks a lot for taking the time to do it. I frequent your stream at least once a day, and I must say it is one of my most favorite parts of my day. I love watching you play, and the chat is fantastic. I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd answer a few questions for me.

  1. What is your favorite class in Diablo III?
  2. What is your favorite class in WoW?
  3. Which WoW expansion was your favorite?
  4. Which class do you despise in WoW?
  5. Which class do you despise in Diablo III?

Once again, thanks for taking the time to answer these questions, man. It means a lot, and you are an inspiration to many.

No_Hands_Ken75 karma

  1. Monk
  2. Resto Druid
  3. I enjoyed WoW before the expansions. It was so clean before they added anything, but Burning Crusade, the first expansion was my favourite expansion.
  4. The Rogue... they sneak up and kill you!
  5. I don't really like the Demon Hunter, but there's no PvP so I don't hate it as much.
  • Ken

Ikarish49 karma

Hi Ken,

Your story really fascinates me and the way you're so humble about everything inspires me a lot. Do you think you will be writing a biography in the future? Because I would definitely buy it.

How long have you been playing World at Warcraft for?

How long did it take for you to get used to the Jouse? Also how long did it take for you to master it?!

Whats the medical care like in Canada? Is most of your medical equipment paid for? do you have to use your personal funds to pay for it? I'm from the UK and I don't know much about Canada's healthcare system but I hear it's good. Please don't answer the question If it isn't too invading your personal life!

No_Hands_Ken102 karma

I am thinking about writing a book about my life. But I am going to do it when I am ready and have the help.

I've been playing WoW since the third day it came out.

It took me about a few weeks to lear, but to master about a month or two.

I believe Canada has the best health care system in the world, and everything is looked after by WCB, which is a major governmental insurance agency - Ken


I was born with congenital heart disease, and as a result I've had major heart surgery and am on my 4th or 5th pacemaker. My own experience in the medical system has been very positive. Sure there are setbacks and sidesteps and mistakes, and I've experienced them, but I am eternally grateful for being born where I am. It costs me ~$25 a month for my medical service plan, which as far as I am aware is mandatory and covers almost everything. All my dad's equipment is paid for my WCB, except dental which everyone knows the headache of having to deal with. - Jordan

finchgnomg49 karma

Hey Ken!! I'm a huge fan and usually get to see your streams when I get off work. My question: I notice you lay on your side during a lot of the streams, is it more comfortable or is it just more practical for you? Also, what are you most excited to do at Blizzcon?!

No_Hands_Ken163 karma

The basic reason I lay on my side is because I have to lay side to side or side to back because of skin issues, so it's more a precaution. As for BlizzCon, I really want to meet Chris Metzen and thank him for making Diablo and basically saving my life, because I was so lonely and didn't know if I could be functional and when I started to become really good at it it gave me the confidence to do other things. - Ken

Dawinsky38 karma

Hey Ken will you film anything during blizzcon and put up on youtube? Would love to see things from when you are there!

Also wanted to say that I really enjoy your stream especially when you play arena because then you have more time between the fights to talk with chat and joke around!

No_Hands_Ken72 karma

My son Jordan is a hobbyist filmmaker and he is going to bring his camera and yes we are going to do some video and pictures as much as we can. Rob is going to go dance on tables so we can't miss that! J/K - Ken


I'll be bringing my camera to shoot as much as I can, but as per guidelines at BlizzCon I am not so sure how much I will be able to show off. Also due to the time crunch while there, I may have to wait until we get home to edit and upload some BlizzCon vlogs. - Jordan

ChrisMidi33 karma

Hi Ken! I heard you're going to Blizzcon (which is awesome by the way!) and I was wondering how you will travel and such, considering the need for the breathing machine (ventilator?) and other medical equipement. Anyway, love your stream man, keep it up!

No_Hands_Ken59 karma

Right now we are working on flying but if that does not pan out I want to send my sons the day before so they can go to Disneyland and I would drive down. - Ken

Ltsherp328 karma

Hey Ken, as a regular to your stream all queries of mine have been covered in one way or the other, except one: You do not posses the ability to move your limbs, but do you still retain the ability to feel pressure?

No_Hands_Ken65 karma

I basically can't feel anything below my nipples. Not even pressure, but I can feel the inside like when my stomach is sore. The internal body. - Ken

Jay_Justice27 karma

Ken, absolutely love the streams. You've touched a lot of lives, and had to see and hear a lot of stories on how you've impacted lives.

If you were asked to take your story on the road and be able to speak about your life before and since your accident to all ages, would you do it?

No_Hands_Ken48 karma

Sure! I would love to help people and I think I would be an okay speaker. Obviously I have to maybe take a course or two, but I am ready to talk to the world about me, my injury and how I live positive every day. - Ken

abbebabbe26 karma

Hi Ken! First of all, you're awesome, such an inspiration for everyone in the gaming community and I'm really happy that you can be a part of it because of the Jouse.

Now for my question: Is there any improvement/changes to Diablo 3 that you would like to make? Like gameplay mechanics, drops, spells, classes, or just in general?

Thanks you for being such an awesome person. PS. Love your stream!

No_Hands_Ken43 karma

The changes that I would like Diablo to make... I was just complaining about it today... Bigger bags for character carrying stuff. PvP! - Ken

hmet1126 karma

Hey Ken! It's HayliNic! Great to see you on here :) what made you originally decide to start streaming on twitch? So glad you did. Rock on!

No_Hands_Ken108 karma

About a year ago me and my son Chriztian (Firztaid) were playing Arenas in WoW, and once we beat them I had a macro that would say "You just got beat by a man who plays with his mouth!" and they would get furious and call me a troll and a liar. So my son thought it would be a good idea to show the people how truthful I was. He bugged me for a whole year and finally I was ready. Scared, but ready. - Ken

StrawberrryPancake24 karma

Do you like to read books? And if so what kind of genre is your favorite?

No_Hands_Ken40 karma

Um, I read the ones I am interested in like fantasy and psychology. - Ken

Econ0121 karma

I saw on your Twitch profile that you love hockey and the Philadelphia Flyers. I am also a hockey fan and I was just wondering how long have you been a fan of the sport and who is your favorite player?

No_Hands_Ken54 karma

I've been skating since I was two until seventeen, and played hockey for about thirteen years. My favourite hockey player is Bobby Clarke, and I got to meet him five years ago. He invited me to a Vancouver Canucks game against the Philadelphia Flyers. We had something in common at the time, we were both losing our moms to cancer. - Ken

Econ0122 karma

I am very sorry to here that about your mother, but on the other hand that is very cool that you got to meet Bobby Clarke, hope you dont mind me asking another question but how did you end up meeting him?

No_Hands_Ken54 karma

A friend of mine from church I guess called the Flyers organization and said how much of an idol he was and that I would like to meet him. The really cool thing about is he said anytime I want to come to Philadelphia he would set it up so we could watch a game together. Recently the Flyers sent me two tickets to a hockey game with a gift package with Flyers stuff. Now you know why I love them so much. - Ken

Wulfgar_20 karma

Besides gaming, what else do you like to do in your spare time?

No_Hands_Ken52 karma

Play poker holdem and watch movies. Notebook and Patch Adams are my favorite. - Ken

Themanlnthewhitevan18 karma

What game are you looking forward to playing the most?

No_Hands_Ken57 karma

I am looking for a game where I can be a lawyer where I can prosecute and defend clients so you go to trial and kind of like a lawyer simmulator. I am interested in the psychology part of it. - Ken


Just told him about Ace Attorney - Jordan

Rockyace16 karma

Hey ken! You're an awesome guy, and you usually seem pretty upbeat.

Sorry if this is too personal or mean or anything, but do you ever feel angry about the accident? Not trying to offend, just curious.

No_Hands_Ken56 karma

In the beginning I was very angry. Not at anyone in general just the fact that I was not able to do anything because that's what I felt at the time. I am not perfect, I get frustrated and I have good and bad days like everyone. I am mostly happy from the result of how my viewers make me feel. It's pretty incredible when someone is telling you they love you and you inspire them and so forth. I feel pretty special when I am streaming. But the one thing I would love to have in my life is a partner to share the rest of my life with. So when I am being silly and saying I am single and stuff, I really want to meet someone. I am serious in a silly way. For that women out there, please get ahold of me, because I can't get ahold of you! - Ken

I_eat_midgets16 karma

Hi Ken thanks for the AMA! Are there any other games you're able to play or are working on playing?

No_Hands_Ken37 karma

I am working on Archage and Path of Exile, I play them sometimes. An Heroes of the Storm I've been playing and love it! - Ken

starseeker_14 karma

Hey Ken! Been watching you since I saw the video on Reddit. Couple of questions:

  1. Do you have the possibility of going out much? To stores, to the park etc? And generally do you like to be outdoors after your accident?

  2. Do you ever get frustrated using the Jouse, whether it is working properly or not? I've seen you've had a few problems with it during your streams. Also, does it bother you that your voice dies out sometimes due to the ventilator and how it works?

  3. Would you be able or have the interest to use VR goggles like the Oculus Rift? If it was possible to modify Jouse or a similiar product to be usable with it.

And lastly not really a question, but please consider playing Don't Starve! Multiplayer for it is coming out soon, you might like it!

Stay strong and stay positive! I admire your outlook on life and am so glad you found gaming to make you happy. Wish I could meet you in real life, you are a true inspiration. Much love from Finland.

No_Hands_Ken20 karma

  1. After my accident I loved to be out and doing things with my family. I went into a tiny bit of a depression after me and my ex-wife split up but now I am back to wanting to get out again.

  2. Yes I have been frustrated because it's not doing what I want it to do and it's cause a few deaths, but it's pretty reliable. As for my voice, it did bother me in the beginning but not now because I am used to it, but I think it's more frustrating for people listening because I lose my words from lack of breath.

  3. I would love to try that. I haven't really looked into the Rift but anything that will make my life with this injury, yeah throw it at me.

Thank you very much!

  • Ken

mck11113 karma

I saw your video today, and i was really inspired!

My question whether the jouse limits you to playing certain kinds of games? I.E. Would you be able to play a first person shooter like halo?

No_Hands_Ken26 karma

No, if a game needs to use a keyboard, he can't play it. - Jordan

-TheWaddleWaddle-13 karma

Is your son's legal name actually spelled with a z? If so that's a pretty baller name for a kid.

Also, have you tried playing Spore? It's very heavily mouse oriented but it's quite different than what you normally play.

No_Hands_Ken21 karma

Yep, the Z is intentional. I've never even heard of Spore.

boscher5012 karma

[deleted]

No_Hands_Ken29 karma

When I get there, because I've actually died twice to the Arcane Rays but when I get to 70, definitely I would like to play with you. This is actually the first season where I've died more than once. - Ken

YesImAtWork11 karma

Hi Ken! Thanks for doing this AMA. :) If I ever had the pleasure of meeting you, what would be the appropriate greeting? I am guessing you don't shake hands? Should I just wave? What would make you feel most welcomed and included?

No_Hands_Ken18 karma

Just a pat on the shoulder works, or just take my hand and shake my hand lightly but only if I am looking at you! I can't lift my hand so you got to do all the work.

arkantosthedemigod10 karma

Ken i see you're live atm on your stream but it's just a picture saying you're answering questions, Would it be possible to change name and game of the stream to reddit AMA and if it's possible to turn your mic/cam on so we can see you respond to questions? (only if you want to ofc)

No_Hands_Ken19 karma

Thank you, I am very forgetful sometimes.

Darkwolf169610 karma

Hey Ken I saw the post about you the other day on the front page, and I was touched by your story and I love your stream!

What do you think of all the attention you have been getting all of a sudden? Do you find it overwhelming?

No_Hands_Ken30 karma

I find it very awkward and I feel I am just a normal guy playing a game to be honest with you. I know from the letters from the viewers I have something I don't understand. I am helping people by just being me. But it makes me happy to help people out! - Ken

Tr4il9 karma

This is so cool, followed your twitch an I will be stopping by soon! I was just wondering, how are you able to afford all the equipment and stuff? Can you live off of your twitch income, or did/do you have good health insurance?

I'm sorry if this is a rude question, please don't answer if you feel it is.

No_Hands_Ken28 karma

I am very well looked after by the governmental insurance agency. They cover all supplies, medical and they've given me a van, help me buy a house which I've given to my ex wife so she could look after the kids. But yes, I am very well looked after and I don't really need the money but I'd like to thank the viewers for allowing me to go to BlizzCon with my two sons. I've not had a vacation in a long, long time and I am going to have a fun time. - Ken

Sandburgers9 karma

Hey, may be a bit late to the party, but what the heck. After seeing your video last week I thought it was really cool how the unit you used to play the games worked with the sipping and blowing for left and right click and now watch your other videos when I have the time. Other than Diablo, what other games have you found enjoyable? And have you tried out 'The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing'?

No_Hands_Ken10 karma

No I haven't tried Van Helsing, but I did love the movie. I play Warcraft, I've played StarCraft, Path of Exile, Rift, Arcage, League of Legends and Heroes of the Storm. - Ken

ielfie8 karma

Hi Ken, my question is: do you feel your heartbeat?

Love, from a fellow Canadian citizen <3

No_Hands_Ken16 karma

Um, yes, um in the beginning I could tell you exactly what my heartbeat was, not so much now. But yes I can feel it. - Ken

commandoshy8 karma

Hi Ken! I only just heard about you a couple days ago and I've already made watching your stream a fairly regular part of my day.

I was wondering, though, whether there are any planned/possible new technologies to help you with playing games? Obviously the Jouse2 is great but is there anything with perhaps more functionality in the works?

I really hope we'll get to the sci-fi neural implants that let you control computers in your time.

No_Hands_Ken18 karma

Actually some of the viewers have recommended several different devices that may be better than the Jouse, so I will be trying all kinds of stuff, But the Jouse is like an old shoe. You get really comfortable with it. Don't want to give it away. - Ken

Blactam7 karma

Ken, your story is amazingly inspiring.

How good are you at Diablo and World of Warcraft? Do you think your skill or precision is very inhibited by the use of your technology? What characters did you play in both? What was your favorite thing to do PvP or PvE? If PvE what was your favorite raid/boss in WoW.

You are an inspiration to many to overcome their adversity and regain happiness.

No_Hands_Ken12 karma

I am okay at it, I am not great or anything. Sometime I feel the Jouse holds me back, but I adapt to the game. I usually play every character even if I am not good at just to learn how to counter the other characters I am not playing. I prefer PvP. My first raid in WoW was Molten Core so that's one of my favourites, and I like the last boss of that Raid. - Ken

Baby_sloths7 karma

Hi Ken! Is there any gaming equipment for quadriplegics (like the Jouse) that you would like to see in the future?

No_Hands_Ken28 karma

Something attached to your brainwaves so you can think it and do it. They have it now but they have so far to go to make it efficient. - Ken

grabbizle7 karma

Ken! I just recently started following you and will hopefully be subscribing later this month. Were you as much into video games before the accident?

No_Hands_Ken18 karma

I did play a bit with my sons like games as Mario Kart and Mario Brothers, but that's about it. Oh and NHL whatever. - Ken

FountainLoly6 karma

After watching your stream, you are an extremely down to earth person I enjoy watching and I definitely followed. My question is will you make real life appearances in gaming hubs or conventions?

No_Hands_Ken8 karma

I've only been streaming for less than a month. I hope to meet some viewers at BlizzCon. - Ken

adambarnett5 karma

Hi Ken, I was really inspired by your video. I was wondering how you type? Is it possible using the Jouse or do you use text to speech?

No_Hands_Ken12 karma

Text to speech is possible but pretty garbage. I have my son Chriz (Firztaid) or one of my nurses type. - Ken

andremwsi5 karma

Ken, ever play path of exile?

No_Hands_Ken5 karma

Yes, I play it once and a while. - Ken

NuclearShadow5 karma

I was wondering if there is anyway to donate to you? I saw your story before I and am sure many others would like to give to you.

No_Hands_Ken6 karma

Check out the Twitch page link. - Jordan

GDZK5 karma

What's your favourite thing to eat/drink while playing?

No_Hands_Ken12 karma

My favourite thing to drink is Coke and to eat I sometimes like popcorn. - Ken

dradaheind894 karma

Missed the story but what exactly occurred when you sustained your injury?

Thanks for going this AMA!

No_Hands_Ken7 karma

Check out the video in the description. - Jordan

Super_Dork_424 karma

Hey Ken. You've maybe seen me a couple of times in the stream. What's your favorite game to play? Have you tried other mouse only games that aren't MMOs, like World of Goo? Is there a game that you could play but won't because you just don't like it?

No_Hands_Ken7 karma

My favourite game is Diablo. There are many games people tell me I can and should play that I have not gotten around to. I really do not like Hearthstone. It's a banned word on my stream chat. - Ken

iseezombies4 karma

Hey Ken! I subscribed to your YouTube channel and I'm looking forward to your gameplay footage! What do you enjoy most about RPGs? Have you played Reaper of Souls yet?

No_Hands_Ken10 karma

I think the fantasy part about it, being a character in a storyline. Yes I've played RoS, and I like it very much! - Ken

jacklop214 karma

Hey Ken, your story is truly inspiring. I know you have a lot of games on your plate as it is, but what games do you plan on starting in the near future? Also, how good is Tim Hortons? I feel like I've never heard a Canadian say a bad thing about Tim Hortons.

No_Hands_Ken9 karma

If I keep on really liking Heroes of the Storm I might just switch from Diablo. Again, I am not great at it but I sure have a lot of fun! As a diabetic Tim Hortons is not good for me, but it tastes good for sure! - Ken

SlapChopMyShamWow3 karma

I read somewhere that you're a big Flyers fan,any truth to this?

No_Hands_Ken8 karma

I am a Flyers fan. They even sent me tickets to a game and a gift package. - Ken

DEnloe3 karma

How difficult is it to play more competitive games like League of Legends? How about a FPS?

No_Hands_Ken6 karma

I can't play FPS, but games like League are fun. I am not all that good at them, but I really enjoy Heroes of the Storm. - Ken

l_Know_Where_U_Live3 karma

Hey Ken. I was wondering, have you looked into any potential future cures/treatments for your condition, stuff like stem cell therapy? I know that any such treatments are likely a long way off, but do you think it's possible that you'll see anything like that within your lifetime?

No_Hands_Ken15 karma

When Christopher Reeves was injured I watched at all the rehab and work he put into getting better, which was a lot more than I was able to do. I've been told I'll never walk again but who knows. - Ken


I think stem cell research is where we are going to find a lot of cures/solutions to injuries such as my dads. - Jordan